1 00:00:05,679 --> 00:00:02,790 [Music] 2 00:00:08,170 --> 00:00:05,689 congratulations YouTube you did it you 3 00:00:10,660 --> 00:00:08,180 wore me down and you sucked me back in I 4 00:00:13,270 --> 00:00:10,670 have too many subscribers here just to 5 00:00:15,790 --> 00:00:13,280 walk away entirely especially with no 6 00:00:18,010 --> 00:00:15,800 alternative that truly stacks up and so 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:18,020 many copycat channels uploading my shows 8 00:00:24,580 --> 00:00:21,410 for me anyway but we can't forget the th 9 00:00:26,410 --> 00:00:24,590 C's account here is on thin ice and so 10 00:00:29,290 --> 00:00:26,420 the YouTube version of the show has to 11 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:29,300 be prefaced with this little PSA only to 12 00:00:33,370 --> 00:00:32,210 say that episodes that contain the kinds 13 00:00:36,250 --> 00:00:33,380 of themes that have been regularly 14 00:00:38,710 --> 00:00:36,260 banned on YouTube will not appear here 15 00:00:40,660 --> 00:00:38,720 and even with that precaution there's 16 00:00:42,940 --> 00:00:40,670 already enough in the archive to get us 17 00:00:45,310 --> 00:00:42,950 removed so remember that the higher side 18 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:45,320 chats could be banned or put in timeout 19 00:00:50,229 --> 00:00:48,170 again at any time and I won't be able to 20 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:50,239 tell you guys about it so if you feel 21 00:00:53,500 --> 00:00:52,010 like it's been too long since you've 22 00:00:56,619 --> 00:00:53,510 heard from me here on this digital 23 00:00:59,410 --> 00:00:56,629 dystopian draconian data-mining monster 24 00:01:00,910 --> 00:00:59,420 of a police state seeking platform your 25 00:01:03,179 --> 00:01:00,920 first step should be to check the higher 26 00:01:08,859 --> 00:01:03,189 side chats calm for the latest shows 27 00:01:10,570 --> 00:01:08,869 alright alright enjoy embrace yourself 28 00:01:12,490 --> 00:01:10,580 because you're about to dive into 29 00:01:14,380 --> 00:01:12,500 another free first hour episode of the 30 00:01:15,580 --> 00:01:14,390 higher side chats and we just want to 31 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:15,590 let you know that whether you're looking 32 00:01:19,179 --> 00:01:17,210 for a companion through your paranoid 33 00:01:21,340 --> 00:01:19,189 insomnia entertaining yourself through 34 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:21,350 one of life's mundane activities we're 35 00:01:24,969 --> 00:01:22,970 trying to ward off the internal scream 36 00:01:27,789 --> 00:01:24,979 to all those sad smothered souls around 37 00:01:29,020 --> 00:01:27,799 the office THC is here and you should 38 00:01:30,999 --> 00:01:29,030 know that every episode of the higher 39 00:01:33,399 --> 00:01:31,009 side chats has an entire second hour 40 00:01:36,039 --> 00:01:33,409 four plus members sign up at the higher 41 00:01:38,590 --> 00:01:36,049 side chats plus calm and you get years 42 00:01:40,660 --> 00:01:38,600 of Plus show archives lifetime forum 43 00:01:43,690 --> 00:01:40,670 access the special invite to Greg Carl 44 00:01:46,929 --> 00:01:43,700 woods monthly joint sessions mp3s of THC 45 00:01:49,630 --> 00:01:46,939 music and bonus episodes for videos and 46 00:01:51,190 --> 00:01:49,640 10% off t-shirts grinders and whatever 47 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:51,200 else ends up in the higher side store 48 00:01:55,990 --> 00:01:54,170 it's $8 a month that you won't miss so 49 00:01:57,670 --> 00:01:56,000 become a plus member and treat yourself 50 00:01:59,950 --> 00:01:57,680 in these trouble times always 51 00:02:01,749 --> 00:01:59,960 action-packed and commercial free which 52 00:02:04,530 --> 00:02:01,759 means you'll unfortunately never hear my 53 00:02:04,540 --> 00:02:15,790 [Music] 54 00:02:21,890 --> 00:02:19,130 the planets puppet-masters on my shirt 55 00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:21,900 you have a plan it's clearly maybe 56 00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:24,650 something there beyond the realm of man 57 00:02:30,710 --> 00:02:27,510 till we've thoroughly tested every last 58 00:02:33,210 --> 00:02:30,720 clips just did you find the more you 59 00:02:38,380 --> 00:02:33,220 think you know less you really do 60 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:38,390 [Music] 61 00:02:45,490 --> 00:02:42,330 see we know the lying to us just don't 62 00:02:55,540 --> 00:02:45,500 know what to green where would we be 63 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:03,510 [Music] 64 00:03:09,070 --> 00:03:06,770 all right higher side chatters we have 65 00:03:10,630 --> 00:03:09,080 talked ad nauseam about the carefully 66 00:03:12,850 --> 00:03:10,640 crafted worldview that has descended 67 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:12,860 upon academia and the wider culture 68 00:03:17,190 --> 00:03:15,110 which carefully filters out many 69 00:03:19,660 --> 00:03:17,200 important aspects of self-discovery 70 00:03:22,470 --> 00:03:19,670 creativity independence coming-of-age 71 00:03:24,910 --> 00:03:22,480 ritual alternative energy spirit contact 72 00:03:26,949 --> 00:03:24,920 paranormal experiences and anything that 73 00:03:29,380 --> 00:03:26,959 falls outside of the paradigm of rigid 74 00:03:32,230 --> 00:03:29,390 materialism or distracts the individual 75 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:32,240 from getting some sad safe mid-level job 76 00:03:36,820 --> 00:03:33,530 at one of the elites well-established 77 00:03:38,350 --> 00:03:36,830 corporate pipelines to mediocrity but we 78 00:03:40,510 --> 00:03:38,360 have also discussed the impressive 79 00:03:42,820 --> 00:03:40,520 foresight of people like Charles fort 80 00:03:44,710 --> 00:03:42,830 who saw this as just a phase and knew 81 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:44,720 that on the other side of scientism we 82 00:03:48,940 --> 00:03:46,370 would have bright minds who no longer 83 00:03:51,070 --> 00:03:48,950 ignored the anomalous but engaged with 84 00:03:53,170 --> 00:03:51,080 it we've been lucky enough here to host 85 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:53,180 a few of these academically accredited 86 00:03:56,530 --> 00:03:55,310 pioneers of the paranormal pushing up 87 00:03:59,020 --> 00:03:56,540 against the boundaries of their 88 00:04:00,490 --> 00:03:59,030 disciplines from parapsychology with dr. 89 00:04:02,949 --> 00:04:00,500 Dean Radin earlier in the year 90 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:02,959 - now para Anthropology with today's 91 00:04:07,030 --> 00:04:05,450 guest dr. Jack hunter if you're 92 00:04:09,190 --> 00:04:07,040 unfamiliar dr. hunter is an 93 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:09,200 anthropologist exploring the borderlands 94 00:04:12,910 --> 00:04:10,970 of consciousness religion and the 95 00:04:15,190 --> 00:04:12,920 paranormal living in the hills of Mid 96 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:15,200 Wales his doctoral research with the 97 00:04:19,030 --> 00:04:16,970 University of Bristol examines the 98 00:04:20,770 --> 00:04:19,040 experiences of spirit mediums and their 99 00:04:23,650 --> 00:04:20,780 influence on the development of self 100 00:04:25,650 --> 00:04:23,660 concepts and models of consciousness he 101 00:04:28,210 --> 00:04:25,660 is the founder and editor of Perak 102 00:04:30,430 --> 00:04:28,220 anthropology journal of anthropological 103 00:04:32,530 --> 00:04:30,440 approaches to the paranormal he is the 104 00:04:34,810 --> 00:04:32,540 author of why people believe in spirits 105 00:04:37,330 --> 00:04:34,820 gods and magic as well as his recently 106 00:04:39,730 --> 00:04:37,340 released engaging the anomalous he's 107 00:04:41,740 --> 00:04:39,740 also the editor of damned facts 40 and 108 00:04:44,380 --> 00:04:41,750 essays on religion folklore and the 109 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:44,390 paranormal as well as co-editor with dr. 110 00:04:48,790 --> 00:04:46,570 David Luke on talking with the spirits 111 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:48,800 ethnographies from between the worlds 112 00:04:52,630 --> 00:04:51,050 but that is not all folks he's also the 113 00:04:54,730 --> 00:04:52,640 founding member of the afterlife 114 00:04:57,070 --> 00:04:54,740 Research Center and Jack is currently 115 00:04:58,840 --> 00:04:57,080 working on the one school one planet 116 00:05:01,600 --> 00:04:58,850 project to develop a mainstream 117 00:05:03,550 --> 00:05:01,610 permaculture curriculum for schools if 118 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:03,560 he was doing any more I'd never get this 119 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:05,330 introduction over with the freshly 120 00:05:08,590 --> 00:05:07,010 minted PhD advic 121 00:05:11,020 --> 00:05:08,600 of the reinstatement of the world an 122 00:05:13,270 --> 00:05:11,030 ally of the spirits dr. Jack my man 123 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:13,280 welcome to the higher side thanks so 124 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:16,130 much for having me you got it I'm 125 00:05:18,910 --> 00:05:17,570 psyched to have you here I think this is 126 00:05:20,860 --> 00:05:18,920 gonna be a hell of a time 127 00:05:23,380 --> 00:05:20,870 I think the work you've done is super 128 00:05:25,510 --> 00:05:23,390 impressive you've had great interviews 129 00:05:27,580 --> 00:05:25,520 on rune soup and skeptical with two of 130 00:05:30,460 --> 00:05:27,590 my favorite people and you've made some 131 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:30,470 great points about what anthropology and 132 00:05:34,090 --> 00:05:32,690 religious studies could be saying that 133 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:34,100 they have the potential to be the 134 00:05:38,350 --> 00:05:36,410 x-files of the humanities which I like a 135 00:05:40,750 --> 00:05:38,360 lot and maybe that's a good place to 136 00:05:43,390 --> 00:05:40,760 start tell us a bit more about your 137 00:05:45,250 --> 00:05:43,400 approach to anthropology or why it might 138 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:45,260 be a good discipline to actually 139 00:05:50,140 --> 00:05:47,330 incorporate more of the weird things we 140 00:05:52,380 --> 00:05:50,150 like around here yeah my approach to 141 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:52,390 anthropology has been quite broad really 142 00:05:57,700 --> 00:05:55,250 so I basically treat anthropology as the 143 00:05:59,710 --> 00:05:57,710 study of human beings which is what it 144 00:06:01,870 --> 00:05:59,720 is if you break the word anthropology up 145 00:06:04,660 --> 00:06:01,880 into two parts you've got anthropos 146 00:06:06,970 --> 00:06:04,670 which means human beings and ecology is 147 00:06:09,370 --> 00:06:06,980 the study of human beings and you know 148 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:09,380 all of the stuff that we associate with 149 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:11,570 the paranormal and the strange and the 150 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:15,530 weird all of it is you know bound around 151 00:06:20,590 --> 00:06:18,050 human beings so from the very GetGo 152 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:20,600 anthropology is kind of uniquely placed 153 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:22,130 as the study of human beings to 154 00:06:26,590 --> 00:06:24,770 investigate the paranormal it's also 155 00:06:28,230 --> 00:06:26,600 uniquely placed to investigate the 156 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:28,240 paranormal because of the things that 157 00:06:31,510 --> 00:06:30,290 anthropologists have investigated you 158 00:06:33,610 --> 00:06:31,520 know going right back to the very 159 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:33,620 beginnings of the discipline they've 160 00:06:39,530 --> 00:06:35,690 always been interested in questions of 161 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:39,540 belief questions of religion 162 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:42,810 engaging with the possibility of spirits 163 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:44,490 while I say engage with the possibility 164 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:46,890 of spirits existing but actually for the 165 00:06:51,410 --> 00:06:48,330 most part many anthropologists have 166 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:51,420 tried to kind of reduce spirits away try 167 00:06:56,090 --> 00:06:53,970 to explain them away in different you 168 00:06:58,850 --> 00:06:56,100 reduce them down to like medical 169 00:07:00,710 --> 00:06:58,860 materialist models or cognitive models 170 00:07:02,570 --> 00:07:00,720 and things like that but there's been a 171 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:02,580 continuous stream throughout from the 172 00:07:06,590 --> 00:07:04,890 very beginning of anthropologists who 173 00:07:09,710 --> 00:07:06,600 have kind of pushed against that kind of 174 00:07:12,860 --> 00:07:09,720 reductionism so what I'm doing really is 175 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:12,870 a continuation of that line of research 176 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:15,330 going right back to people like EB Tyler 177 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:18,270 and his work on animism the work of 178 00:07:23,870 --> 00:07:20,730 people like Andrew Lang he was a famous 179 00:07:25,430 --> 00:07:23,880 folklorist and he proposed something way 180 00:07:28,340 --> 00:07:25,440 back in the 19th century called 181 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:28,350 comparative psychical research which 182 00:07:33,350 --> 00:07:30,450 really is parent apology as I understand 183 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:33,360 it and then this whole long line of 184 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:35,010 researchers who have engaged with 185 00:07:40,190 --> 00:07:38,010 ontological possibilities particularly 186 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:40,200 people like edith turner who I'm very 187 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:42,810 very fond of as an anthropologist and 188 00:07:45,650 --> 00:07:44,130 maybe we'll talk about her a bit later 189 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:45,660 but yeah that's what I've been doing 190 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:47,490 I've been tapping into that current of 191 00:07:52,310 --> 00:07:49,770 interest in pushing the boundaries of 192 00:07:54,650 --> 00:07:52,320 anthropology yeah I think it's really 193 00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:54,660 interesting because to some degree the 194 00:07:58,880 --> 00:07:57,210 emphasis tends to be on Oh consciousness 195 00:08:01,100 --> 00:07:58,890 is such a component of these experiences 196 00:08:03,670 --> 00:08:01,110 we need to be focused on parapsychology 197 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:03,680 which is useful of course but there are 198 00:08:07,430 --> 00:08:05,730 communities of people experiencing 199 00:08:09,470 --> 00:08:07,440 paranormal and magical things all the 200 00:08:12,140 --> 00:08:09,480 time engaging with spirits all the time 201 00:08:13,930 --> 00:08:12,150 and in anthropology instead of 202 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:13,940 researching them from that condescending 203 00:08:18,650 --> 00:08:17,010 position of saying oh well it's really 204 00:08:20,990 --> 00:08:18,660 fun to study what other people believe 205 00:08:22,460 --> 00:08:21,000 in their superstitions but we in the 206 00:08:24,110 --> 00:08:22,470 West have figured it all out 207 00:08:26,300 --> 00:08:24,120 and we know that there's really nothing 208 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:26,310 there it's an arbitrary study at that 209 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:28,290 point if you're really not gonna assume 210 00:08:33,170 --> 00:08:30,330 that what they're interacting with is 211 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:33,180 real and we could learn a lot more if we 212 00:08:37,670 --> 00:08:35,970 just took them at their word exactly I 213 00:08:39,860 --> 00:08:37,680 know that's what I've tried to do with 214 00:08:42,140 --> 00:08:39,870 my research with spirit mediums in 215 00:08:44,150 --> 00:08:42,150 Bristol is not to go in there with 216 00:08:47,510 --> 00:08:44,160 assumptions about what they do but to 217 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:47,520 kind of experience it firsthand and kind 218 00:08:51,590 --> 00:08:49,530 of take their understandings on board 219 00:08:53,420 --> 00:08:51,600 and see where it leads and not 220 00:08:56,630 --> 00:08:53,430 surprisingly it's led down some in 221 00:08:59,420 --> 00:08:56,640 ting rabbit holes right because you have 222 00:09:01,490 --> 00:08:59,430 had some rather strange paranormal 223 00:09:04,250 --> 00:09:01,500 experiences or sightings over the years 224 00:09:05,780 --> 00:09:04,260 that seemed pretty hard to put back in 225 00:09:08,329 --> 00:09:05,790 the box right could you tell us about a 226 00:09:10,220 --> 00:09:08,339 couple of those there's a few different 227 00:09:11,660 --> 00:09:10,230 things that come to mind I mean going 228 00:09:13,370 --> 00:09:11,670 back to my kind of involvement in 229 00:09:15,980 --> 00:09:13,380 anthropology and these kinds of 230 00:09:18,829 --> 00:09:15,990 questions there's a few experiences that 231 00:09:21,019 --> 00:09:18,839 have led me down this path one of them 232 00:09:23,210 --> 00:09:21,029 was a psychedelic experience that I had 233 00:09:26,540 --> 00:09:23,220 the very first time that I had magic 234 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:26,550 mushrooms and I saw these small very 235 00:09:30,139 --> 00:09:28,170 light creatures they call them fairies 236 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:30,149 at the time but perhaps they look a 237 00:09:35,269 --> 00:09:32,970 little bit more like goblins or gremlins 238 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:35,279 or something that was a big experience 239 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:37,529 for me and it was a big influence on the 240 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:39,810 direction that my career is taking I 241 00:09:42,579 --> 00:09:41,010 supposed mm-hmm 242 00:09:45,829 --> 00:09:42,589 sure we could talk a lot about 243 00:09:50,329 --> 00:09:45,839 psychedelics and entity encounters and 244 00:09:52,490 --> 00:09:50,339 that kind of thing sure and then a few 245 00:09:54,829 --> 00:09:52,500 years later when I first went to 246 00:09:57,139 --> 00:09:54,839 university I started to realize that 247 00:09:59,060 --> 00:09:57,149 anthropology provided this like a really 248 00:10:01,670 --> 00:09:59,070 useful framework for investigating all 249 00:10:04,370 --> 00:10:01,680 of these fringe topics and strange 250 00:10:06,260 --> 00:10:04,380 extraordinary experiences because it's 251 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:06,270 been dealing with you know other world 252 00:10:10,460 --> 00:10:08,490 views and things for a long time and I 253 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:10,470 became interested in the question you're 254 00:10:14,660 --> 00:10:12,930 drawing on my experiences of seeing 255 00:10:17,210 --> 00:10:14,670 these fairy creatures and things at that 256 00:10:20,630 --> 00:10:17,220 of why it is that people come to believe 257 00:10:22,940 --> 00:10:20,640 in these beings so I started from a 258 00:10:24,980 --> 00:10:22,950 position of thinking about belief really 259 00:10:28,519 --> 00:10:24,990 but I've moved away from that I think 260 00:10:30,380 --> 00:10:28,529 over time and I came across this group 261 00:10:32,690 --> 00:10:30,390 at Bristol called the Bristol spirit 262 00:10:35,390 --> 00:10:32,700 Lodge that seemed to provide a really 263 00:10:36,590 --> 00:10:35,400 useful it was useful because it was only 264 00:10:38,180 --> 00:10:36,600 about ten minutes down the road from 265 00:10:39,949 --> 00:10:38,190 where I was living which is kind of like 266 00:10:42,860 --> 00:10:39,959 a bit of a weird synchronicity in itself 267 00:10:45,650 --> 00:10:42,870 and it was like a small group of people 268 00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:45,660 who regularly gathered during the week 269 00:10:50,990 --> 00:10:48,600 to basically develop trance and physical 270 00:10:52,699 --> 00:10:51,000 mediumship and it seemed like the 271 00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:52,709 perfect opportunity for me to delve a 272 00:10:55,850 --> 00:10:54,240 little bit deeper into this question of 273 00:10:58,040 --> 00:10:55,860 why it is that people come to believe in 274 00:10:59,780 --> 00:10:58,050 spirits and ultimately the conclusion 275 00:11:01,510 --> 00:10:59,790 that I came to was that people come to 276 00:11:04,050 --> 00:11:01,520 believe in spirits because people have 277 00:11:05,790 --> 00:11:04,060 experiences of spirits 278 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:05,800 and obviously when you start to engage 279 00:11:11,310 --> 00:11:09,370 with experience then again it opens up 280 00:11:13,470 --> 00:11:11,320 lots of different avenues that you can 281 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:13,480 start to explore and it leaves you into 282 00:11:16,710 --> 00:11:15,850 questions of ontology and what really 283 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:16,720 exists 284 00:11:22,620 --> 00:11:19,090 i chi said that moves you away from 285 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:22,630 thinking about beliefs to thinking more 286 00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:25,210 about experiences and ontological 287 00:11:31,770 --> 00:11:28,510 possibilities mm-hmm and the Bristol 288 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:31,780 spirit large stuff is so interesting can 289 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:33,910 you paint us a picture of what a typical 290 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:35,410 session looked like they're at least 291 00:11:40,590 --> 00:11:38,650 procedurally what seemed to be important 292 00:11:43,500 --> 00:11:40,600 for opening up these channels of 293 00:11:46,140 --> 00:11:43,510 communication yeah basically the 294 00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:46,150 understanding that I came to with the 295 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:49,120 seances I attended was that everything 296 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:51,130 in the seance is geared towards the 297 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:53,410 induction of altered states of 298 00:12:00,330 --> 00:11:56,770 consciousness in both the medium and in 299 00:12:02,790 --> 00:12:00,340 the sitter's so the usual protocol of 300 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:02,800 the seances was that first of all you'd 301 00:12:07,380 --> 00:12:04,690 have kind of like an informal chat in 302 00:12:08,700 --> 00:12:07,390 the house and you discussed know what 303 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:08,710 you've been doing in the week they'd 304 00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:10,210 have a cup of tea and all those kinds of 305 00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:12,480 things and I mean these are really 306 00:12:18,930 --> 00:12:15,790 normal people whatever normal is these 307 00:12:21,510 --> 00:12:18,940 are kind of like mainstream people with 308 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:21,520 an interest in spirit mediumship and so 309 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:23,170 it was very interesting in that sense 310 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:25,810 and then you go out into the lodge which 311 00:12:30,990 --> 00:12:28,050 was a wooden shed in the garden 312 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:31,000 literally is like a five foot by five 313 00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:33,250 foot shed so it's quite small and 314 00:12:38,910 --> 00:12:36,160 intimate space inside the lodge they had 315 00:12:40,110 --> 00:12:38,920 a circle of chairs laid out and in the 316 00:12:43,830 --> 00:12:40,120 very middle of the room there was a 317 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:43,840 wooden platform kind of like a wooden 318 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:46,330 panel right on the floor which they 319 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:47,890 would put objects on for spirits to 320 00:12:52,050 --> 00:12:50,050 manipulate the other reason that the 321 00:12:54,390 --> 00:12:52,060 panel was there was so that 322 00:12:56,130 --> 00:12:54,400 if there was any suspicion that the 323 00:12:57,300 --> 00:12:56,140 medium was sneaking around the room or 324 00:13:00,060 --> 00:12:57,310 anything you'd be able to hear them 325 00:13:02,220 --> 00:13:00,070 walking on this wooden panel so that was 326 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:02,230 kind of like a safeguard and then in the 327 00:13:07,470 --> 00:13:04,690 very corner of the room they had a 328 00:13:10,170 --> 00:13:07,480 curtain doff area called the cabinet 329 00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:10,180 which is a you know something that 330 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:12,310 spiritualists have been using since you 331 00:13:16,350 --> 00:13:13,930 know way back when the spiritualist 332 00:13:19,470 --> 00:13:16,360 movement began in the 19th century so 333 00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:19,480 the medium sits in the cabinet 334 00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:21,910 the circle leader will put on some music 335 00:13:27,210 --> 00:13:24,670 and they'll put on red lights usually 336 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:27,220 the circle leader reads a prayer which 337 00:13:32,220 --> 00:13:30,250 invites spirits to come down into the 338 00:13:35,580 --> 00:13:32,230 lodge to make themselves known through 339 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:35,590 the medium this prayer is also like a 340 00:13:39,540 --> 00:13:37,450 prayer of protection because obviously 341 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:39,550 if you're inviting spirits down you 342 00:13:44,340 --> 00:13:41,770 don't want to be inviting down negative 343 00:13:47,130 --> 00:13:44,350 entities so they do try to cover their 344 00:13:51,020 --> 00:13:47,140 bases in that sense they call themselves 345 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:51,030 a non-denominational spiritualist group 346 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:53,530 because they don't affiliate themselves 347 00:13:58,800 --> 00:13:56,290 with big organizations like the 348 00:14:00,510 --> 00:13:58,810 spiritualist National Union they don't 349 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:00,520 consider themselves to be religious in 350 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:03,130 any way when they're doing these prayers 351 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:05,170 they do still kind of call out to a 352 00:14:10,740 --> 00:14:08,290 higher power or you could call it God or 353 00:14:12,690 --> 00:14:10,750 some kind of a great spirit that will do 354 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:12,700 the protecting so that was interesting 355 00:14:17,810 --> 00:14:15,010 as well the way the religion and the 356 00:14:19,890 --> 00:14:17,820 paranormal kind of merged together and 357 00:14:21,450 --> 00:14:19,900 from the middle of them you get this 358 00:14:23,100 --> 00:14:21,460 whole of the way of thinking about the 359 00:14:25,790 --> 00:14:23,110 nature of God so that was pretty 360 00:14:28,590 --> 00:14:25,800 interesting it is interesting because 361 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:28,600 it's the religious listeners I have that 362 00:14:34,500 --> 00:14:31,090 anytime I do a show focused on magic or 363 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:34,510 a figure in magical history they get 364 00:14:37,860 --> 00:14:36,490 real nervous about it and it's almost 365 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:37,870 like they've made their mind up that 366 00:14:42,750 --> 00:14:40,690 these are negative people and that you 367 00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:42,760 know and the big conspiracy most of it's 368 00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:46,270 all occultists and that occult equals 369 00:14:50,430 --> 00:14:48,430 bad and all that stuff but in a previous 370 00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:50,440 interview I heard you mention upbeat 371 00:14:54,270 --> 00:14:52,720 music as being helpful in the seance 372 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:54,280 that spirits like a jovial atmosphere 373 00:14:58,350 --> 00:14:55,810 I've never heard that before 374 00:15:00,120 --> 00:14:58,360 but we have that religious residue that 375 00:15:01,890 --> 00:15:00,130 says if spirits are real then they're 376 00:15:04,470 --> 00:15:01,900 just demons and they're bad did you 377 00:15:06,510 --> 00:15:04,480 encounter anything more demonic or 378 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:06,520 something you felt was dangerous along 379 00:15:10,380 --> 00:15:08,170 the way that would jive with that sort 380 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:10,390 of belief I don't think I did actually 381 00:15:15,060 --> 00:15:13,690 to be honest I didn't encounter any you 382 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:15,070 know anything that we would think of as 383 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:18,130 demonic or evil motives that come 384 00:15:23,190 --> 00:15:20,650 through our well basically how it works 385 00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:23,200 is each medium has their own they call 386 00:15:27,570 --> 00:15:25,630 them spirit team which in my experience 387 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:27,580 at the Bristol Spirit lodge could be you 388 00:15:32,820 --> 00:15:29,770 know anything from like two to sixteen 389 00:15:35,370 --> 00:15:32,830 different individuals who come through 390 00:15:37,860 --> 00:15:35,380 but the point is that they are regular 391 00:15:39,510 --> 00:15:37,870 communicators so it's not like when you 392 00:15:41,940 --> 00:15:39,520 go to a spiritualist Church and you want 393 00:15:44,370 --> 00:15:41,950 to make contact with the spirit of a 394 00:15:46,050 --> 00:15:44,380 dead loved one or anything like that you 395 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:46,060 go to these seances because you want to 396 00:15:51,270 --> 00:15:48,130 communicate with a set group of spirits 397 00:15:53,220 --> 00:15:51,280 so they weren't actively inviting in new 398 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:53,230 spirits every time you would just go and 399 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:54,970 you'd meet with this same group of 400 00:15:59,040 --> 00:15:57,130 spirits which was really interesting 401 00:16:01,800 --> 00:15:59,050 because you get to know the spirits over 402 00:16:04,410 --> 00:16:01,810 a long period of time you get to notice 403 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:04,420 quirks that they have you get to notice 404 00:16:09,060 --> 00:16:06,730 whether their vocal tonality changes 405 00:16:11,610 --> 00:16:09,070 over time and things like that and I was 406 00:16:13,770 --> 00:16:11,620 impressed to see that actually the 407 00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:13,780 individual spirit personalities in these 408 00:16:19,050 --> 00:16:15,880 spirit teams were quite consistent over 409 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:19,060 weeks and months mmm and even years I 410 00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:22,780 like that and it is sort of my general 411 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:24,910 worldview of course nothing is absolute 412 00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:27,370 but I just feel like it's mostly residue 413 00:16:32,430 --> 00:16:30,880 from religious authorities that want to 414 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:32,440 paint this picture that it's all bad 415 00:16:36,330 --> 00:16:34,330 it's not people who have real experience 416 00:16:37,890 --> 00:16:36,340 in magic saying that it's generally 417 00:16:40,770 --> 00:16:37,900 people who are just afraid to try I mean 418 00:16:43,380 --> 00:16:40,780 isn't it coincidental that we don't 419 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:43,390 teach meditation in our culture we say 420 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:46,090 magic is evil or dumb and then also 421 00:16:49,740 --> 00:16:47,650 psychedelics are illegal I mean these 422 00:16:51,510 --> 00:16:49,750 are the components that all get you 423 00:16:53,850 --> 00:16:51,520 there these are all the roads that lead 424 00:16:56,820 --> 00:16:53,860 to learning that there's more than the 425 00:16:58,350 --> 00:16:56,830 material world and yet they're all road 426 00:17:01,110 --> 00:16:58,360 blocked I find that to be pretty 427 00:17:03,330 --> 00:17:01,120 convenient yeah I think it also has 428 00:17:05,699 --> 00:17:03,340 something to do with the rise of 429 00:17:08,780 --> 00:17:05,709 priesthood and things like that we're 430 00:17:11,010 --> 00:17:08,790 dealing with the leftovers of that where 431 00:17:14,250 --> 00:17:11,020 communication with the gods or with the 432 00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:14,260 spirits was the job just for one person 433 00:17:18,420 --> 00:17:15,790 I mean before the rise of the 434 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:18,430 monotheistic religions obviously there 435 00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:20,170 were priests but we might be able to 436 00:17:24,540 --> 00:17:22,660 speculate on whether the spiritual world 437 00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:24,550 was a little bit more democratic perhaps 438 00:17:31,380 --> 00:17:28,720 but over time and as a hangover of you 439 00:17:33,390 --> 00:17:31,390 know Christianity all of these 440 00:17:34,770 --> 00:17:33,400 techniques that are available to human 441 00:17:37,170 --> 00:17:34,780 beings to make contact with that world 442 00:17:39,390 --> 00:17:37,180 have been demonized literally demonized 443 00:17:41,910 --> 00:17:39,400 so yeah it's pretty interesting stuff 444 00:17:44,490 --> 00:17:41,920 right and a certain kind of personal 445 00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:44,500 power comes from engaging with that so 446 00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:46,310 again convenient that some 447 00:17:50,380 --> 00:17:48,080 else would want to say actually give me 448 00:17:53,050 --> 00:17:50,390 some money and I'll facilitate this 449 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:53,060 stuff for you and I'll tell you what God 450 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:55,010 wants you to do I think it's a little 451 00:17:59,200 --> 00:17:57,170 silly that people don't they they're 452 00:18:01,240 --> 00:17:59,210 just not more curious about that 453 00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:01,250 motivation and that and that what might 454 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:03,590 actually be behind the proverbial door 455 00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:05,330 number three so this is a lot of fun 456 00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:07,430 yeah you know you talk about a lot of 457 00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:10,310 anthropologists in the book and what you 458 00:18:13,630 --> 00:18:11,600 liked and didn't like about their 459 00:18:15,460 --> 00:18:13,640 various approaches to studying this sort 460 00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:15,470 of stuff and you say that you were 461 00:18:18,670 --> 00:18:17,360 greatly influenced by the work of edith 462 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:18,680 turner who you mentioned earlier to 463 00:18:23,020 --> 00:18:21,290 quote you you write in the same way that 464 00:18:25,390 --> 00:18:23,030 if one follows the recipe for a 465 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:25,400 chocolate cake in detail a chocolate 466 00:18:30,430 --> 00:18:27,290 cake will result from the procedure if 467 00:18:32,530 --> 00:18:30,440 one follows a ritual properly the ritual 468 00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:32,540 outcome will be achieved this is 469 00:18:37,450 --> 00:18:34,370 precisely what edith turner found when 470 00:18:40,330 --> 00:18:37,460 she participated in the i humba ceremony 471 00:18:43,420 --> 00:18:40,340 in zambia can you tell us about what she 472 00:18:45,250 --> 00:18:43,430 witnessed in that ceremony yeah I first 473 00:18:46,690 --> 00:18:45,260 heard about this during I think it was 474 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:46,700 in the final year of my undergraduate 475 00:18:52,330 --> 00:18:50,210 degree I was taking a module on religion 476 00:18:56,260 --> 00:18:52,340 and cosmology with Fiona Bowie he would 477 00:18:58,570 --> 00:18:56,270 go on to be my PhD supervisor and when I 478 00:19:02,110 --> 00:18:58,580 heard this story of Edith owners I was 479 00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:02,120 totally blown away because she's full-on 480 00:19:07,450 --> 00:19:04,880 talking about the experience you know as 481 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:07,460 an ontological event or as a you know as 482 00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:10,610 a real experience that she had that 483 00:19:14,830 --> 00:19:12,320 seemed to record well with the beliefs 484 00:19:17,770 --> 00:19:14,840 of her informants so basically what 485 00:19:20,830 --> 00:19:17,780 happened was she had been to participate 486 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:20,840 in this a hand the ceremony with her 487 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:22,490 husband Victor Turner who was a very 488 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:24,890 influential anthropologist and it's from 489 00:19:28,750 --> 00:19:26,330 Victor Turner that we get all of these 490 00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:28,760 concepts of liminality and things like 491 00:19:33,570 --> 00:19:31,310 that and communitas so he was a very big 492 00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:33,580 important anthropologist but they were 493 00:19:40,420 --> 00:19:37,370 relatively reserved anthropologists to 494 00:19:43,060 --> 00:19:40,430 begin with observing the rituals but not 495 00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:43,070 necessarily participating in them and 496 00:19:45,820 --> 00:19:44,750 then a few years later after Victor 497 00:19:48,610 --> 00:19:45,830 Turner had passed away 498 00:19:51,310 --> 00:19:48,620 Edith Turner went back out into the 499 00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:51,320 field back out to Zambia with the in 500 00:19:56,590 --> 00:19:54,710 Denver people and she decided that she 501 00:19:59,290 --> 00:19:56,600 was gonna allow herself to kind of 502 00:19:59,890 --> 00:19:59,300 participate in this ritual fully bodily 503 00:20:02,340 --> 00:19:59,900 and 504 00:20:05,290 --> 00:20:02,350 emotionally for the first time really 505 00:20:08,170 --> 00:20:05,300 the ritual basically that takes place 506 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:08,180 over a bunch of hours and the idea is 507 00:20:11,860 --> 00:20:10,310 that there is an afflicted person a 508 00:20:14,350 --> 00:20:11,870 member of the community who's been 509 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:14,360 afflicted by any hand or spirit and this 510 00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:16,850 spirit enters into the body of the 511 00:20:20,410 --> 00:20:19,040 person and it kind of moves around and 512 00:20:23,260 --> 00:20:20,420 they say that it moves around the body 513 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:23,270 in the form of a human tooth that kind 514 00:20:26,220 --> 00:20:25,010 of moves around inside and causes all 515 00:20:30,130 --> 00:20:26,230 sorts of problems 516 00:20:32,140 --> 00:20:30,140 so they do a bunch of ritual actions 517 00:20:33,940 --> 00:20:32,150 they have a medicine man kind of 518 00:20:36,970 --> 00:20:33,950 thinking that's probably not the best 519 00:20:40,540 --> 00:20:36,980 term to use the you know a healer or 520 00:20:43,780 --> 00:20:40,550 Shaymin and over the period of this 521 00:20:46,270 --> 00:20:43,790 ritual of dancing and chanting and you 522 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:46,280 know all sorts of ritual actions at the 523 00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:47,330 very climax 524 00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:50,720 Edith Turner felt that she was about she 525 00:20:55,570 --> 00:20:52,640 said she felt as if something was about 526 00:20:57,460 --> 00:20:55,580 to be born and it was a kind of a 527 00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:57,470 palpable feeling amongst the whole group 528 00:21:02,620 --> 00:20:59,600 that something was about to happen and 529 00:21:04,210 --> 00:21:02,630 at the very climax she saw the medicine 530 00:21:06,580 --> 00:21:04,220 man scooping out the back of the 531 00:21:10,660 --> 00:21:06,590 afflicted patient what she described as 532 00:21:14,110 --> 00:21:10,670 a gray ectoplasmic kind of blob thing 533 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:14,120 yes he's totally crazy stuff and this 534 00:21:19,060 --> 00:21:16,010 was the amber spirit this was the entity 535 00:21:21,850 --> 00:21:19,070 itself and the medicine man held the 536 00:21:24,010 --> 00:21:21,860 spirit in his hands quickly put it into 537 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:24,020 a jar and they capped it over with a 538 00:21:29,710 --> 00:21:28,010 castor oil leaf of castor leaf and when 539 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:29,720 they went to have a look inside the jar 540 00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:31,610 afterwards to see what was in there sure 541 00:21:35,710 --> 00:21:33,520 enough there was a human tooth in there 542 00:21:38,110 --> 00:21:35,720 so it was a pretty crazy kind of 543 00:21:39,790 --> 00:21:38,120 experience to have and she said it was 544 00:21:43,540 --> 00:21:39,800 this experience that basically led her 545 00:21:46,510 --> 00:21:43,550 to include that in order to understand 546 00:21:49,090 --> 00:21:46,520 ritual and we can extend that to you 547 00:21:51,010 --> 00:21:49,100 know religion or the paranormal or any 548 00:21:54,250 --> 00:21:51,020 of these kinds of things in order to 549 00:21:56,230 --> 00:21:54,260 understand them we have to learn to see 550 00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:56,240 them the way that the native sees them 551 00:22:00,790 --> 00:21:58,640 and by native she doesn't mean you know 552 00:22:02,580 --> 00:22:00,800 like primitive tribal people or anything 553 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:02,590 that she means like the people who 554 00:22:07,330 --> 00:22:04,970 participate and created those rituals 555 00:22:10,150 --> 00:22:07,340 and all of those kinds of things so it 556 00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:10,160 was big influence on me anyway yeah 557 00:22:13,340 --> 00:22:11,600 that's a wild story sounds like 558 00:22:15,830 --> 00:22:13,350 something out of Constantine 559 00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:15,840 but I do like that attitude that 560 00:22:20,539 --> 00:22:18,240 studying the edges of reality and these 561 00:22:23,029 --> 00:22:20,549 most epic of experiences is how we 562 00:22:25,789 --> 00:22:23,039 should map our world not by studying the 563 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:25,799 mundane that's the obvious part you know 564 00:22:30,529 --> 00:22:27,330 we should know where the boundaries are 565 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:30,539 if there even are any but I hear a story 566 00:22:33,409 --> 00:22:31,890 like that I think listeners hear 567 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:33,419 something like that and it's definitely 568 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:36,330 fascinating but it doesn't jive with the 569 00:22:41,779 --> 00:22:38,850 experiences we have or anyone we know 570 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:41,789 has generally and you hear about the 571 00:22:48,919 --> 00:22:45,690 ideas of possession or that entities can 572 00:22:51,140 --> 00:22:48,929 cause us a mince or be a contributing 573 00:22:54,830 --> 00:22:51,150 factor like maybe you have a headache or 574 00:22:58,669 --> 00:22:54,840 something or back pain and I just don't 575 00:23:01,340 --> 00:22:58,679 really know what is a good way to think 576 00:23:04,190 --> 00:23:01,350 about that stuff do you have a model for 577 00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:04,200 the influence that entities have on us 578 00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:06,480 or how to draw those lines especially in 579 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:07,980 the Western world when people don't even 580 00:23:12,980 --> 00:23:10,650 believe they exist it's like well not 581 00:23:15,049 --> 00:23:12,990 believing they exist doesn't really make 582 00:23:17,539 --> 00:23:15,059 them not exist so do they still affect 583 00:23:19,279 --> 00:23:17,549 people that sort of thing yeah that's 584 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:19,289 interesting I mean I don't have any kind 585 00:23:25,130 --> 00:23:22,650 of formalized model to think about it 586 00:23:25,940 --> 00:23:25,140 but I definitely think that it's a 587 00:23:28,490 --> 00:23:25,950 possibility 588 00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:28,500 and if we take seriously that evidence 589 00:23:32,779 --> 00:23:30,080 that we have from you know 590 00:23:35,090 --> 00:23:32,789 parapsychology and the evidence that we 591 00:23:36,980 --> 00:23:35,100 have from mediumship research and all 592 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:36,990 those kind of things it certainly seems 593 00:23:40,430 --> 00:23:38,370 to suggest that there's at least the 594 00:23:42,590 --> 00:23:40,440 possibility that these entities are out 595 00:23:43,909 --> 00:23:42,600 there and if they are out there then 596 00:23:46,159 --> 00:23:43,919 they've always been out there and 597 00:23:48,830 --> 00:23:46,169 they've always been interacting with 598 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:48,840 human beings so you know if we take that 599 00:23:53,510 --> 00:23:52,110 as our starting point then you know the 600 00:23:54,830 --> 00:23:53,520 fact that we don't believe in them 601 00:23:56,810 --> 00:23:54,840 anymore doesn't mean that they're not 602 00:23:59,350 --> 00:23:56,820 still interacting with us in certain 603 00:24:02,419 --> 00:23:59,360 ways and that they might be spiritual or 604 00:24:04,070 --> 00:24:02,429 metaphysical causes behind different 605 00:24:06,140 --> 00:24:04,080 kinds of ailments and things that we 606 00:24:09,049 --> 00:24:06,150 just don't think in those kinds of terms 607 00:24:10,370 --> 00:24:09,059 anymore it's a hard thing to parse out 608 00:24:12,289 --> 00:24:10,380 because I've also heard people talk 609 00:24:14,299 --> 00:24:12,299 about maybe if you're just irritable or 610 00:24:16,580 --> 00:24:14,309 if you're acting shitty to your spouse 611 00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:16,590 for a week maybe you need a clearing in 612 00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:18,960 your house or a protection spell yeah or 613 00:24:22,549 --> 00:24:20,460 it's like maybe it's just been hot 614 00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:22,559 lately or maybe you're just pissed about 615 00:24:27,150 --> 00:24:24,390 your economic situation it's really hard 616 00:24:29,370 --> 00:24:27,160 to isolate causes but I 617 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:29,380 spirits are in the mix somewhere I just 618 00:24:33,780 --> 00:24:31,330 don't want to give them too much credit 619 00:24:35,670 --> 00:24:33,790 or not enough and it's hard to really 620 00:24:38,970 --> 00:24:35,680 find where that dial should be 621 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:38,980 calibrated to yeah it's true it makes me 622 00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:41,410 think of the weird relationship in the 623 00:24:47,970 --> 00:24:45,130 19th century between spiritualism and 624 00:24:51,630 --> 00:24:47,980 things like multiple personality 625 00:24:53,670 --> 00:24:51,640 disorders and hypnosis instead of the 626 00:24:56,340 --> 00:24:53,680 paranormal researcher david scott Rogow 627 00:24:58,830 --> 00:24:56,350 called this an an infinite boundary that 628 00:25:00,720 --> 00:24:58,840 there's this constant crossing over of 629 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:00,730 this boundary between spirit possession 630 00:25:04,260 --> 00:25:02,410 and multiple personality and all those 631 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:04,270 kind of things and actually when you 632 00:25:07,860 --> 00:25:05,770 start to think about it in those terms 633 00:25:10,370 --> 00:25:07,870 as well it becomes very difficult to 634 00:25:12,379 --> 00:25:10,380 pull the threads of our 635 00:25:15,169 --> 00:25:12,389 that's a great point I live here in San 636 00:25:19,070 --> 00:25:15,179 Diego we have a real homelessness crisis 637 00:25:21,529 --> 00:25:19,080 and sometimes I will sit and just kind 638 00:25:24,259 --> 00:25:21,539 of from a distance like really observe 639 00:25:26,990 --> 00:25:24,269 someone who's you know screaming on the 640 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:27,000 corner to no one and I'm like is that is 641 00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:29,130 that that person is that a spute what's 642 00:25:32,360 --> 00:25:30,809 going on there what really is that and 643 00:25:34,460 --> 00:25:32,370 I've you know there's a hundred people 644 00:25:36,769 --> 00:25:34,470 walking by them just kind of crossing 645 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:36,779 the street and clutching their purse but 646 00:25:40,610 --> 00:25:39,090 it is kind of fascinating to think about 647 00:25:42,950 --> 00:25:40,620 it you know if someone's like well 648 00:25:45,409 --> 00:25:42,960 spirits aren't real well maybe you just 649 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:45,419 walked past one who was possessing 650 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:47,490 someone I mean I don't I just don't know 651 00:25:52,940 --> 00:25:50,490 no yeah it's really interesting stuff it 652 00:25:55,060 --> 00:25:52,950 also brings to mind all of the that's 653 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:55,070 kind of therapeutic potentials of 654 00:25:59,090 --> 00:25:57,210 mediumship development and all of those 655 00:26:00,350 --> 00:25:59,100 kind of things that's one thing that I 656 00:26:03,049 --> 00:26:00,360 started to think about when I was doing 657 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:03,059 my research was a lot of the mediums 658 00:26:07,129 --> 00:26:05,610 that I spoke to said that throughout 659 00:26:10,460 --> 00:26:07,139 their lives as they were growing up 660 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:10,470 they'd had strange experiences one 661 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:12,570 medium for example said you know issues 662 00:26:17,570 --> 00:26:15,450 to go into old houses and things she 663 00:26:19,580 --> 00:26:17,580 would get this horrible feeling she said 664 00:26:21,919 --> 00:26:19,590 it felt like something passing through 665 00:26:24,049 --> 00:26:21,929 her body and she described it as like 666 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:24,059 you're trying to pull a jumper off 667 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:26,970 inside out it's a really strange way of 668 00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:29,129 describing it but she felt some kind of 669 00:26:32,990 --> 00:26:31,710 like a pull and it used to really freak 670 00:26:34,970 --> 00:26:33,000 her out and you know it made her really 671 00:26:37,789 --> 00:26:34,980 scared because it's such a strange 672 00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:37,799 sensation and then it was only you know 673 00:26:42,950 --> 00:26:40,080 few years down the line following a few 674 00:26:45,259 --> 00:26:42,960 other kinds of trajectories that they 675 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:45,269 started to develop mediumship kind of 676 00:26:50,539 --> 00:26:47,730 formally and realized that all of these 677 00:26:52,490 --> 00:26:50,549 feelings and experiences that they've 678 00:26:55,430 --> 00:26:52,500 had these anomalous experiences they 679 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:55,440 have had were indications of their inner 680 00:26:59,710 --> 00:26:57,890 future mediumistic calling 681 00:27:01,090 --> 00:26:59,720 and it was through developing mediumship 682 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:01,100 that they were able to kind of 683 00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:03,410 domesticate those wild anomalous 684 00:27:07,930 --> 00:27:05,870 experiences and put them to some kind of 685 00:27:10,090 --> 00:27:07,940 use and I just wonder about that you 686 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:10,100 know the possibilities of the 687 00:27:13,330 --> 00:27:11,930 therapeutic potentials of these 688 00:27:16,030 --> 00:27:13,340 different traditions that are being 689 00:27:19,090 --> 00:27:16,040 totally ignored by mainstream Western 690 00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:19,100 medicine the whole load of stuff there 691 00:27:24,460 --> 00:27:21,710 should be explore right and it is very 692 00:27:27,130 --> 00:27:24,470 very frustrating that this hasn't been 693 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:27,140 done already with like all the years 694 00:27:32,260 --> 00:27:29,090 that the sciences have had and all this 695 00:27:33,820 --> 00:27:32,270 stuff I am super grateful that you're 696 00:27:36,010 --> 00:27:33,830 deciding to do this work but it's also 697 00:27:37,630 --> 00:27:36,020 so frustrating it's like you know what 698 00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:37,640 have you been doing this to me is like 699 00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:39,110 really where the rubber meets the road 700 00:27:44,170 --> 00:27:41,120 if you want to study reality and the 701 00:27:46,030 --> 00:27:44,180 human experience and to maybe elaborate 702 00:27:48,850 --> 00:27:46,040 on a portion of your work tell the 703 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:48,860 people what ontological flooding is this 704 00:27:54,730 --> 00:27:50,330 seems to be a big part of the Jack 705 00:27:57,730 --> 00:27:54,740 hunter soup isn't it yeah my ontological 706 00:28:00,540 --> 00:27:57,740 flooding is basically the term that I've 707 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:00,550 developed for my approach to 708 00:28:04,780 --> 00:28:03,170 investigating well anything with it 709 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:04,790 doesn't have to be the paranormal but 710 00:28:11,050 --> 00:28:07,010 you know it works very well with the 711 00:28:16,170 --> 00:28:11,060 paranormal and basically the idea is we 712 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:16,180 need to entertain multiple possibilities 713 00:28:21,070 --> 00:28:18,650 simultaneously if we start to reduce 714 00:28:22,810 --> 00:28:21,080 ourselves down to a single explanation 715 00:28:26,050 --> 00:28:22,820 then there's a whole load of other 716 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:26,060 things that be really missing out on the 717 00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:28,970 idea kind of came out of my research on 718 00:28:34,540 --> 00:28:32,720 mediumship and I saw that especially in 719 00:28:36,730 --> 00:28:34,550 anthropology there's been so many 720 00:28:40,270 --> 00:28:36,740 different explanatory frameworks applied 721 00:28:42,010 --> 00:28:40,280 to it so for example a very popular 722 00:28:43,540 --> 00:28:42,020 explanation of spirit mediumship and 723 00:28:45,820 --> 00:28:43,550 possession at the moment is that kind of 724 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:45,830 cognitive explanation but they explain 725 00:28:50,410 --> 00:28:48,530 mediumship in terms of like cognitive 726 00:28:52,180 --> 00:28:50,420 processes in the brain and it's just a 727 00:28:54,220 --> 00:28:52,190 way that we perceive the world and the 728 00:28:57,210 --> 00:28:54,230 way we think about things and there's no 729 00:28:59,330 --> 00:28:57,220 real you know there's no ontological 730 00:29:00,830 --> 00:28:59,340 basis to it 731 00:29:02,739 --> 00:29:00,840 another explanation is the kind of 732 00:29:05,739 --> 00:29:02,749 social functional explanation where 733 00:29:08,299 --> 00:29:05,749 mediumship performs a function of 734 00:29:11,830 --> 00:29:08,309 providing an opportunity for social 735 00:29:14,659 --> 00:29:11,840 protest in societies where women 736 00:29:17,499 --> 00:29:14,669 particularly are suppressed it gives 737 00:29:20,110 --> 00:29:17,509 them an opportunity to kind of speak out 738 00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:20,120 another explanation is the medical 739 00:29:25,220 --> 00:29:22,289 reductionist model where they basically 740 00:29:27,710 --> 00:29:25,230 say that spirit mediumship and spirit 741 00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:27,720 possession are a form of a pathological 742 00:29:32,180 --> 00:29:30,240 condition and so they might associate it 743 00:29:33,909 --> 00:29:32,190 with multiple personality disorder or 744 00:29:36,889 --> 00:29:33,919 schizophrenia or things like that and 745 00:29:38,749 --> 00:29:36,899 basically I was like well there's so 746 00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:38,759 many different explanations here for 747 00:29:45,529 --> 00:29:41,600 spirit possession and I can see that 748 00:29:48,049 --> 00:29:45,539 lots of them kind of make sense but 749 00:29:50,149 --> 00:29:48,059 we've we take them in themselves as a 750 00:29:51,590 --> 00:29:50,159 single complete explanation they don't 751 00:29:54,109 --> 00:29:51,600 seem to account for everything that's 752 00:29:55,909 --> 00:29:54,119 going on so for example social 753 00:29:58,310 --> 00:29:55,919 functional explanations don't really 754 00:29:59,989 --> 00:29:58,320 take into account the experience of 755 00:30:02,539 --> 00:29:59,999 mediumship and what mediumship feels 756 00:30:05,899 --> 00:30:02,549 like to the person who's undergoing it 757 00:30:07,369 --> 00:30:05,909 or none of those kind of dominant 758 00:30:09,710 --> 00:30:07,379 anthropological approaches take 759 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:09,720 seriously the possibility that genuine 760 00:30:15,710 --> 00:30:12,570 SCI phenomena are a possibility or that 761 00:30:17,119 --> 00:30:15,720 spirits might actually be real so you 762 00:30:19,369 --> 00:30:17,129 know I kind of came to the conclusion 763 00:30:21,710 --> 00:30:19,379 that when we're thinking about these 764 00:30:24,889 --> 00:30:21,720 things we need to include all of these 765 00:30:27,739 --> 00:30:24,899 possibilities and more and that's what I 766 00:30:29,629 --> 00:30:27,749 mean by ontological flooding is that we 767 00:30:31,279 --> 00:30:29,639 need to kind of flood ourselves with all 768 00:30:32,980 --> 00:30:31,289 of these possibilities if we're going to 769 00:30:36,009 --> 00:30:32,990 get anywhere near close to understanding 770 00:30:39,230 --> 00:30:36,019 the true complexity of these issues 771 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:39,240 right instead of an either/or approach 772 00:30:44,330 --> 00:30:41,850 it's both and like let's throw all the 773 00:30:46,220 --> 00:30:44,340 ideas up there and whichever are the 774 00:30:48,249 --> 00:30:46,230 most valid will stay around and the 775 00:30:50,299 --> 00:30:48,259 other ones will fall by the wayside and 776 00:30:52,820 --> 00:30:50,309 it's like altered states of 777 00:30:54,710 --> 00:30:52,830 consciousness are so key to these 778 00:30:57,470 --> 00:30:54,720 experiences you can almost empathize 779 00:30:59,539 --> 00:30:57,480 with those camps that feel like it it's 780 00:31:01,659 --> 00:30:59,549 all in the head but that's still so 781 00:31:05,450 --> 00:31:01,669 dismissive and maybe it's about 782 00:31:08,869 --> 00:31:05,460 arbitrary categorization between real 783 00:31:10,940 --> 00:31:08,879 and all in your head because I mean to 784 00:31:13,310 --> 00:31:10,950 the person who's experiencing it ask 785 00:31:15,590 --> 00:31:13,320 them and they'll tell you like this was 786 00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:15,600 necessarily an illusion or a 787 00:31:21,370 --> 00:31:18,960 hallucination this is a very real thing 788 00:31:24,289 --> 00:31:21,380 to them and so it does get into that 789 00:31:27,620 --> 00:31:24,299 kind of semantics of categorization to a 790 00:31:30,379 --> 00:31:27,630 degree yeah definitely it makes me think 791 00:31:33,110 --> 00:31:30,389 of what you're saying there a quote that 792 00:31:36,769 --> 00:31:33,120 I found from Jung where he was talking 793 00:31:38,990 --> 00:31:36,779 about psychological truths and he said 794 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:39,000 that psychological truths that just as 795 00:31:44,210 --> 00:31:41,130 real as any other kind of like physical 796 00:31:47,860 --> 00:31:44,220 or biological truths so we can't really 797 00:31:50,570 --> 00:31:47,870 put these arbitrary brackets around 798 00:31:51,919 --> 00:31:50,580 experiences and you know the leaks and 799 00:31:55,009 --> 00:31:51,929 things like that we can't say that they 800 00:31:57,769 --> 00:31:55,019 don't have any ontological validity in 801 00:32:00,860 --> 00:31:57,779 themselves mm-hmm yeah it's good stuff 802 00:32:03,889 --> 00:32:00,870 yeah I like that and so let me also ask 803 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:03,899 you about Charlie this was a specific 804 00:32:07,879 --> 00:32:06,210 entity that you seem to have ongoing 805 00:32:10,999 --> 00:32:07,889 communication with this is pretty 806 00:32:13,490 --> 00:32:11,009 provocative yeah Charlie was a spirit 807 00:32:16,669 --> 00:32:13,500 that I met at the Bristol spirit lodge 808 00:32:19,490 --> 00:32:16,679 and he came through a medium called John 809 00:32:21,649 --> 00:32:19,500 who was a regular sitter at the lodge so 810 00:32:23,419 --> 00:32:21,659 he would come to seances he would sit in 811 00:32:26,330 --> 00:32:23,429 with other mediums who are developing 812 00:32:28,789 --> 00:32:26,340 but he was also quite an advanced trance 813 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:28,799 medium himself and he'd done a lot of 814 00:32:33,730 --> 00:32:30,330 training in different mediumship 815 00:32:36,139 --> 00:32:33,740 techniques he'd done a lot of platform 816 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:36,149 mediumship in spiritualist churches 817 00:32:41,060 --> 00:32:38,970 where they if they say is there a J 818 00:32:42,769 --> 00:32:41,070 coming through and anyone except that he 819 00:32:45,139 --> 00:32:42,779 done all of that kind of stuff he done 820 00:32:48,399 --> 00:32:45,149 shamanic trance development and things 821 00:32:51,529 --> 00:32:48,409 like that and eventually he moved on to 822 00:32:52,930 --> 00:32:51,539 developing his mediumship at the Bristol 823 00:32:56,230 --> 00:32:52,940 Spirit Podge 824 00:33:00,040 --> 00:32:56,240 and Charlie was his main spirit guide 825 00:33:02,620 --> 00:33:00,050 he was the spirit that would kind of 826 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:02,630 take control of his body during séances 827 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:05,690 and would act as a kind of a gatekeeper 828 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:08,210 to let other spirits come through during 829 00:33:14,770 --> 00:33:12,050 the transition and he was also very keen 830 00:33:16,990 --> 00:33:14,780 on telling us about his kind of 831 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:17,000 philosophical views and his ideas about 832 00:33:20,290 --> 00:33:18,410 the nature of reality and all those 833 00:33:21,730 --> 00:33:20,300 kinds of things so people who were going 834 00:33:23,470 --> 00:33:21,740 to the lodge would really enjoy his 835 00:33:25,570 --> 00:33:23,480 conversations they would love to sit 836 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:25,580 with him and talk about philosophy and 837 00:33:31,420 --> 00:33:28,010 ask him questions and stuff and he was 838 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:31,430 really impressive because he was pretty 839 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:34,490 consistent over a number of weeks months 840 00:33:40,270 --> 00:33:35,210 and years 841 00:33:41,860 --> 00:33:40,280 his philosophy didn't really change the 842 00:33:44,530 --> 00:33:41,870 messages that he were giving were 843 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:44,540 consistent and yeah so I spent a lot of 844 00:33:50,140 --> 00:33:46,970 time just after I finished my 845 00:33:53,410 --> 00:33:50,150 undergraduate degree I spent a lot of 846 00:33:55,660 --> 00:33:53,420 time transcribing recordings of the 847 00:33:57,520 --> 00:33:55,670 seances that we had with him and just to 848 00:33:59,470 --> 00:33:57,530 capture these ideas that he was talking 849 00:34:01,810 --> 00:33:59,480 about it's pretty interesting I really 850 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:01,820 enjoyed it the funny thing about Charlie 851 00:34:06,220 --> 00:34:04,490 was that I can't remember his real name 852 00:34:09,460 --> 00:34:06,230 at the moment but he told us that in a 853 00:34:10,720 --> 00:34:09,470 previous life he had been a Chinese monk 854 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:10,730 which is prettier 855 00:34:15,460 --> 00:34:12,530 you know stereotypical hass these spirit 856 00:34:17,050 --> 00:34:15,470 guides but he'd been the Chinese monk he 857 00:34:18,790 --> 00:34:17,060 said he was called Dowlen or something 858 00:34:21,460 --> 00:34:18,800 like that which again sounds very 859 00:34:23,580 --> 00:34:21,470 stereotypical but he then took on this 860 00:34:25,930 --> 00:34:23,590 name of Charlie to make himself more 861 00:34:27,940 --> 00:34:25,940 relatable to the people at the Bristol 862 00:34:29,710 --> 00:34:27,950 spirit lodge and it kind of stuck so he 863 00:34:31,780 --> 00:34:29,720 was like an ancient Chinese philosopher 864 00:34:35,710 --> 00:34:31,790 really talking through the body of 865 00:34:37,180 --> 00:34:35,720 suburb and Bristolian yeah I really 866 00:34:39,700 --> 00:34:37,190 found that to be super fascinating to 867 00:34:41,710 --> 00:34:39,710 cite a paragraph from engaging the 868 00:34:43,150 --> 00:34:41,720 anomalous you had this contact with the 869 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:43,160 spirit called Charlie through a medium 870 00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:45,050 or acted as a host and you say but 871 00:34:49,930 --> 00:34:47,510 rather than using him as an informant to 872 00:34:52,090 --> 00:34:49,940 examine the social makeup of the lodge I 873 00:34:54,550 --> 00:34:52,100 asked him questions about the spirit 874 00:34:56,290 --> 00:34:54,560 world and what exactly he was his 875 00:34:58,180 --> 00:34:56,300 answers offered intriguing food for 876 00:35:00,100 --> 00:34:58,190 thought perhaps most revealing was his 877 00:35:02,580 --> 00:35:00,110 assertion that he was not the product of 878 00:35:04,930 --> 00:35:02,590 a single source but rather a collective 879 00:35:07,570 --> 00:35:04,940 manifestation there are three sides 880 00:35:10,210 --> 00:35:07,580 involved the spirit the conscious host 881 00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:10,220 and the subconscious host when in a 882 00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:12,560 trance State Charlie explained all three 883 00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:14,000 components must be 884 00:35:18,820 --> 00:35:16,730 in a state of common trust without this 885 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:18,830 blending Charlie would not have been 886 00:35:23,020 --> 00:35:20,930 able to manifest now that's what I'm 887 00:35:25,690 --> 00:35:23,030 talking about man that is interesting 888 00:35:28,570 --> 00:35:25,700 Intel yeah I guess could you elaborate 889 00:35:30,849 --> 00:35:28,580 on what that says to you about the 890 00:35:34,390 --> 00:35:30,859 mechanisms between spirits and people is 891 00:35:37,450 --> 00:35:34,400 a little more clear post Charlie that's 892 00:35:38,859 --> 00:35:37,460 part of my desire to push anthropology a 893 00:35:41,109 --> 00:35:38,869 little bit further than it's usually 894 00:35:43,690 --> 00:35:41,119 willing to go so usually anthropologists 895 00:35:46,540 --> 00:35:43,700 just focus on know the social group the 896 00:35:48,700 --> 00:35:46,550 social facts if you like the makeup of 897 00:35:49,839 --> 00:35:48,710 the group the how they interact with 898 00:35:51,940 --> 00:35:49,849 each other and all those kind of things 899 00:35:54,430 --> 00:35:51,950 but I wanted to find out more about the 900 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:54,440 spirit world and trying to do a kind of 901 00:35:58,240 --> 00:35:56,090 anthropology of the spirit world so 902 00:36:01,599 --> 00:35:58,250 obviously the best people to talk to 903 00:36:04,089 --> 00:36:01,609 about that our spirits and yeah it was 904 00:36:05,770 --> 00:36:04,099 really interesting to hear that he was 905 00:36:09,010 --> 00:36:05,780 aware of the fact that he was the 906 00:36:11,230 --> 00:36:09,020 product of multiple influencing parts I 907 00:36:12,970 --> 00:36:11,240 think we could take that a step further 908 00:36:15,070 --> 00:36:12,980 as well and say that he was also partly 909 00:36:16,570 --> 00:36:15,080 the product of the influence of the 910 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:16,580 people who were sitting in the seance 911 00:36:20,770 --> 00:36:19,490 and communicating in fact that's one of 912 00:36:22,450 --> 00:36:20,780 the things that I've found most 913 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:22,460 interesting about the spirits is how 914 00:36:28,210 --> 00:36:26,210 they are socially manifested if you like 915 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:28,220 that they are the product of all of 916 00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:30,050 these different influencing parts yeah 917 00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:31,910 different influences different 918 00:36:37,089 --> 00:36:34,070 consciousnesses interacting with each 919 00:36:38,770 --> 00:36:37,099 other and then this personality of 920 00:36:41,650 --> 00:36:38,780 Charlie kind of emerges at the 921 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:41,660 intersection something that I noted 922 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:43,810 during my research as well was that 923 00:36:49,210 --> 00:36:46,450 there were similarities with other 924 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:49,220 mediumistic traditions where they also 925 00:36:54,460 --> 00:36:52,250 see this kind of communal manifestation 926 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:54,470 going on so there was an anthropologist 927 00:37:01,990 --> 00:36:57,290 called Nurit Burt David who was studying 928 00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:02,000 this tribal Indian group in India 929 00:37:06,910 --> 00:37:04,730 and they interact with these spirits 930 00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:06,920 called davara which are kind of like 931 00:37:13,570 --> 00:37:10,310 nature spirits and she wrote about how 932 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:13,580 the process of manifesting these spirits 933 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:16,850 was one of social interactions through 934 00:37:22,270 --> 00:37:19,610 conversations and through dialogue so 935 00:37:23,860 --> 00:37:22,280 they would do very similar things to the 936 00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:23,870 kind of things that I was seeing in the 937 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:25,280 Bristol spirit lodge they would start 938 00:37:30,460 --> 00:37:27,170 talking to the spirit they were kind of 939 00:37:32,830 --> 00:37:30,470 coax it forward the spirit might be kind 940 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:32,840 of sluggish to begin with and slow and 941 00:37:36,460 --> 00:37:34,610 then eventually it would kind of come up 942 00:37:38,770 --> 00:37:36,470 to speed and it was dialog that 943 00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:38,780 reinforced the presence of the spirit so 944 00:37:43,330 --> 00:37:40,640 obviously if no one was talking to the 945 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:43,340 spirit during the seance then the spirit 946 00:37:48,460 --> 00:37:46,250 wouldn't be able to manifest the dialog 947 00:37:50,530 --> 00:37:48,470 seemed to be an important part the 948 00:37:52,450 --> 00:37:50,540 spirits are kind of the product of 949 00:37:55,090 --> 00:37:52,460 relationships between us and the spirit 950 00:37:58,090 --> 00:37:55,100 world and between the medium in the 951 00:38:00,580 --> 00:37:58,100 spirit and basically the spirit seemed 952 00:38:02,650 --> 00:38:00,590 to be quite complex in the way that they 953 00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:02,660 manifested lots of different influencing 954 00:38:07,180 --> 00:38:04,310 factors going on hmm 955 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:07,190 so fascinating and you mentioned nature 956 00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:09,290 spirits and that got me thinking lately 957 00:38:15,490 --> 00:38:12,880 I've had this impression that there is a 958 00:38:19,450 --> 00:38:15,500 connection as much as there is between 959 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:19,460 altered states and this contact there's 960 00:38:24,790 --> 00:38:21,530 also a connection between nature and 961 00:38:26,260 --> 00:38:24,800 entity contact I think maybe one reason 962 00:38:27,970 --> 00:38:26,270 why we have hundreds of millions of 963 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:27,980 people who deny the existence of a 964 00:38:33,250 --> 00:38:29,930 spirit world is because the Western 965 00:38:35,380 --> 00:38:33,260 world these concrete cities they kind of 966 00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:35,390 gear us to thinking that way or they 967 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:39,110 allow us the luxury of ignoring the 968 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:40,490 spirit world but if you look at 969 00:38:45,580 --> 00:38:43,130 indigenous cultures obviously not 970 00:38:47,260 --> 00:38:45,590 without exception but a great deal of 971 00:38:49,090 --> 00:38:47,270 them kind of just take for granted there 972 00:38:52,330 --> 00:38:49,100 are spirits and I've had people talk to 973 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:52,340 me about just think about the the state 974 00:38:57,940 --> 00:38:54,530 of consciousness you would be in if you 975 00:39:00,070 --> 00:38:57,950 spent a night in the wilderness alone no 976 00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:00,080 we don't do that you know we never do 977 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:01,310 that and we might go our whole lives 978 00:39:06,910 --> 00:39:03,530 without doing that and you can imagine 979 00:39:08,770 --> 00:39:06,920 that that state of consciousness that's 980 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:08,780 like a natural altering and you might 981 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:11,210 start to see forms in the darkness or 982 00:39:15,170 --> 00:39:14,090 here things that aren't there and maybe 983 00:39:18,470 --> 00:39:15,180 that's the spirit 984 00:39:21,260 --> 00:39:18,480 creeping back into your life after 985 00:39:23,030 --> 00:39:21,270 you've ignored it for so long I'm not so 986 00:39:25,250 --> 00:39:23,040 sure but it is funny because you study 987 00:39:26,420 --> 00:39:25,260 people in the Western world and 988 00:39:28,430 --> 00:39:26,430 generally people think of 989 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:28,440 anthropologists as like the Jane Goodall 990 00:39:33,470 --> 00:39:31,410 of people and I do think there might be 991 00:39:36,109 --> 00:39:33,480 a nature component what do you think 992 00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:36,119 about that yeah it definitely ties in 993 00:39:40,819 --> 00:39:37,710 with something that I'm working on at 994 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:40,829 the moment I just had a short article 995 00:39:46,339 --> 00:39:44,130 published about the possible role of 996 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:46,349 things like permaculture and practical 997 00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:49,650 ecology of actually you know hands-on 998 00:39:54,260 --> 00:39:51,599 engagement with the natural world and 999 00:39:56,390 --> 00:39:54,270 how that leads to extraordinary 1000 00:39:58,099 --> 00:39:56,400 experiences and a lot of the time these 1001 00:40:01,460 --> 00:39:58,109 extraordinary experiences are kind of 1002 00:40:03,890 --> 00:40:01,470 like personified experiences so you 1003 00:40:05,630 --> 00:40:03,900 might be working observing and 1004 00:40:07,309 --> 00:40:05,640 interacting with the land which is kind 1005 00:40:09,740 --> 00:40:07,319 of like a permaculture principle and 1006 00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:09,750 through that observation and interaction 1007 00:40:15,319 --> 00:40:13,250 begin to realize that the trees and the 1008 00:40:17,270 --> 00:40:15,329 different kinds of plants and the soil 1009 00:40:20,359 --> 00:40:17,280 and the water and all these kinds of 1010 00:40:23,660 --> 00:40:20,369 things have a kind of personal quality 1011 00:40:25,010 --> 00:40:23,670 to them right so I do think that there 1012 00:40:26,270 --> 00:40:25,020 is something going on here and it's 1013 00:40:28,309 --> 00:40:26,280 something that I'm exploring at the 1014 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:28,319 moment here but you know you think about 1015 00:40:33,530 --> 00:40:30,930 these traditional societies in the past 1016 00:40:35,539 --> 00:40:33,540 and they have been fully interacting 1017 00:40:37,430 --> 00:40:35,549 with the natural world and their 1018 00:40:40,670 --> 00:40:37,440 awareness of these spiritual beings is 1019 00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:40,680 much more marked than our own and I 1020 00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:42,089 think you're right in pointing out the 1021 00:40:47,690 --> 00:40:43,760 fact that we spend so much of our time 1022 00:40:49,549 --> 00:40:47,700 indoors not connected with the natural 1023 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:49,559 world and I don't think it's a 1024 00:40:54,349 --> 00:40:51,210 coincidence that you know we don't 1025 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:54,359 believe in spirits as much and you know 1026 00:40:59,839 --> 00:40:56,490 we don't have these experiences often as 1027 00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:59,849 other people do mm-hmm and now I don't 1028 00:41:03,740 --> 00:41:01,440 want to drag you down in the 1029 00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:03,750 conspiratorial muck with me any more 1030 00:41:08,059 --> 00:41:05,910 than a half - you're an accomplished PhD 1031 00:41:09,559 --> 00:41:08,069 but you know you mentioned the river 1032 00:41:12,020 --> 00:41:09,569 spirits thing I did a previous episode 1033 00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:12,030 with a guest Michael Wan who just as an 1034 00:41:15,530 --> 00:41:13,920 example took the Susquehanna River 1035 00:41:17,569 --> 00:41:15,540 because he lives near it and you looked 1036 00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:17,579 at all the points on the river the 1037 00:41:22,190 --> 00:41:19,200 mouths of the river where they converge 1038 00:41:24,799 --> 00:41:22,200 and there's all kinds of monuments and 1039 00:41:27,410 --> 00:41:24,809 structures and in some cases rituals 1040 00:41:28,970 --> 00:41:27,420 like even the Groundhog's Day ritual 1041 00:41:32,090 --> 00:41:28,980 takes place right 1042 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:32,100 where the or the rivers converge and his 1043 00:41:37,550 --> 00:41:34,290 premise overall is just that there are 1044 00:41:39,740 --> 00:41:37,560 people high up above us or older 1045 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:39,750 traditions or secret societies that 1046 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:42,570 carry on these offerings to River 1047 00:41:48,140 --> 00:41:45,450 spirits or place their monuments on 1048 00:41:50,720 --> 00:41:48,150 certain ley lines and that there is 1049 00:41:53,060 --> 00:41:50,730 high-level magic going on engaging with 1050 00:41:55,370 --> 00:41:53,070 the natural world it's just not on the 1051 00:41:57,050 --> 00:41:55,380 radar of the regular person and of 1052 00:41:59,000 --> 00:41:57,060 course that would suit the benefit of 1053 00:42:01,190 --> 00:41:59,010 someone who is trying to engage with 1054 00:42:02,750 --> 00:42:01,200 something for personal gain if no one 1055 00:42:04,670 --> 00:42:02,760 else knows about it of course that's 1056 00:42:07,010 --> 00:42:04,680 gonna help you as well but I'm just 1057 00:42:10,910 --> 00:42:07,020 curious what you think about that nexus 1058 00:42:12,380 --> 00:42:10,920 of conspiracy and ritual the idea that 1059 00:42:14,890 --> 00:42:12,390 some of this stuff does go on in the 1060 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:14,900 Western world just above our pay grade 1061 00:42:20,930 --> 00:42:17,730 yeah I wouldn't be surprised if it does 1062 00:42:22,790 --> 00:42:20,940 I mean people who have money and power 1063 00:42:25,940 --> 00:42:22,800 and all these kinds of things can pretty 1064 00:42:29,359 --> 00:42:25,950 much do what they want and we know that 1065 00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:29,369 you know through things like Freemasonry 1066 00:42:33,740 --> 00:42:30,960 and all of these other kinds of secret 1067 00:42:35,810 --> 00:42:33,750 societies that once you get up to higher 1068 00:42:38,660 --> 00:42:35,820 levels then it does start to become very 1069 00:42:41,390 --> 00:42:38,670 much like ritual magic and all of those 1070 00:42:43,130 --> 00:42:41,400 ideas are kind of floating around so I 1071 00:42:45,500 --> 00:42:43,140 really really wouldn't be surprised if 1072 00:42:47,780 --> 00:42:45,510 there were people who are continuing to 1073 00:42:49,340 --> 00:42:47,790 practice these kinds of traditions in 1074 00:42:51,859 --> 00:42:49,350 the upper echelon Ziff you want to call 1075 00:42:53,750 --> 00:42:51,869 it upper but that's one side of thing 1076 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:53,760 but there's also the undercurrent of 1077 00:42:58,280 --> 00:42:55,890 folk magic and all these kinds of things 1078 00:43:00,109 --> 00:42:58,290 that's still going on as well probably 1079 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:00,119 there are still people just like I've 1080 00:43:04,370 --> 00:43:02,210 discovered people in the West who 1081 00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:04,380 communicate with spirits you know on a 1082 00:43:10,190 --> 00:43:07,280 daily basis there are still people who 1083 00:43:11,660 --> 00:43:10,200 practice natural magic and wicker and 1084 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:11,670 all these kinds of things obviously 1085 00:43:16,010 --> 00:43:14,130 these are movements that are growing so 1086 00:43:19,930 --> 00:43:16,020 it's coming from the bottom up as well 1087 00:43:22,490 --> 00:43:19,940 and I think tying all this stuff in with 1088 00:43:24,349 --> 00:43:22,500 climate change and the Paris climate 1089 00:43:26,030 --> 00:43:24,359 agreement and all of that kind of stuff 1090 00:43:29,150 --> 00:43:26,040 and the realization that we're going to 1091 00:43:30,590 --> 00:43:29,160 have to have major social and cultural 1092 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:30,600 transformations if we're going to 1093 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:32,970 prevent our planet from going into the 1094 00:43:37,550 --> 00:43:35,130 total collapse that we're going to have 1095 00:43:39,290 --> 00:43:37,560 to re-engage with these older traditions 1096 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:39,300 and we're going to have to interact more 1097 00:43:43,650 --> 00:43:41,770 with the spirits and the 1098 00:43:45,870 --> 00:43:43,660 different entities that inhabit the 1099 00:43:48,420 --> 00:43:45,880 world around us if we don't start to do 1100 00:43:50,190 --> 00:43:48,430 that then we're never gonna bring about 1101 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:50,200 that social and cultural change that we 1102 00:43:56,940 --> 00:43:53,770 need mm-hm I'm with you there cheers to 1103 00:43:58,920 --> 00:43:56,950 that and I of course think that by 1104 00:44:03,000 --> 00:43:58,930 better educating ourselves we might 1105 00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:03,010 better recognize rituals or monuments or 1106 00:44:07,110 --> 00:44:05,110 things that have been going on that we 1107 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:07,120 haven't been able to recognize once we 1108 00:44:12,090 --> 00:44:09,970 learn the context of how these spirit 1109 00:44:14,700 --> 00:44:12,100 interactions work and how magic might 1110 00:44:16,590 --> 00:44:14,710 work then we can say oh that is 1111 00:44:18,270 --> 00:44:16,600 something we should look at or that's 1112 00:44:19,890 --> 00:44:18,280 not it 1113 00:44:22,620 --> 00:44:19,900 you know because an conspiracy shows 1114 00:44:24,060 --> 00:44:22,630 people can get all crazy about all kinds 1115 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:24,070 of things and it's like well if you have 1116 00:44:28,980 --> 00:44:26,410 real context a real education about 1117 00:44:32,190 --> 00:44:28,990 magic you can kind of dial that in more 1118 00:44:34,950 --> 00:44:32,200 appropriately so I just I like the work 1119 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:34,960 you're doing and you know I have weird 1120 00:44:39,630 --> 00:44:37,810 applications for it but just kids 1121 00:44:41,430 --> 00:44:39,640 to go back to Charlie a minute you know 1122 00:44:44,340 --> 00:44:41,440 we talked about the Gateway we talked 1123 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:44,350 about the channels of communication how 1124 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:47,170 they can be opened but you also asked 1125 00:44:51,240 --> 00:44:49,330 him about his world about the spirit 1126 00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:51,250 world itself can you give us any insight 1127 00:44:56,490 --> 00:44:54,310 into how you conceptualize the spirit 1128 00:44:57,870 --> 00:44:56,500 world based on Charlie's insight I think 1129 00:45:00,900 --> 00:44:57,880 a lot of people just think of it as like 1130 00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:00,910 a big cloud I don't know what does it 1131 00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:02,400 look like to you 1132 00:45:07,980 --> 00:45:05,110 well one of the things that most struck 1133 00:45:10,980 --> 00:45:07,990 me about Charlie's explanations of the 1134 00:45:13,260 --> 00:45:10,990 spirit world it's not like a physical 1135 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:13,270 landscape with fixed features for 1136 00:45:18,530 --> 00:45:15,570 example it seems to be something that 1137 00:45:20,850 --> 00:45:18,540 shifts and can change depending on 1138 00:45:23,580 --> 00:45:20,860 basically what it seems to be is a realm 1139 00:45:25,650 --> 00:45:23,590 of consciousness that makes sense it's 1140 00:45:28,260 --> 00:45:25,660 something that is affected by our 1141 00:45:29,220 --> 00:45:28,270 beliefs and our expectations and all of 1142 00:45:31,890 --> 00:45:29,230 those kinds of things 1143 00:45:33,210 --> 00:45:31,900 the Charlie would talk about you know 1144 00:45:34,860 --> 00:45:33,220 this is pretty common knowledge in 1145 00:45:36,780 --> 00:45:34,870 spiritualist circles and those kind of 1146 00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:36,790 places but the things that we believe 1147 00:45:43,050 --> 00:45:39,520 when we die they affect the kind of 1148 00:45:44,130 --> 00:45:43,060 place that we go to after we're dead we 1149 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:44,140 believe that we're going to go to 1150 00:45:48,810 --> 00:45:46,210 Valhalla for example if that's what we 1151 00:45:50,910 --> 00:45:48,820 firmly believe then the kind of spirit 1152 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:50,920 world that we enter into will be you 1153 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:53,170 know like a Valhalla Norse kind of 1154 00:45:57,180 --> 00:45:54,290 spirit world 1155 00:45:59,380 --> 00:45:57,190 so I mean it's a fluctuating place I 1156 00:46:00,250 --> 00:45:59,390 think perhaps one of the best ways to 1157 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:00,260 think about it 1158 00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:06,770 is maybe as a kind of a dream land and 1159 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:08,270 when I was teaching religious studies 1160 00:46:14,290 --> 00:46:11,090 for a level a few years ago and came 1161 00:46:17,620 --> 00:46:14,300 across this guy HH price who is a 1162 00:46:20,650 --> 00:46:17,630 philosopher interested in psychical 1163 00:46:22,420 --> 00:46:20,660 research which is pretty cool and that 1164 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:22,430 was his idea basically was that the 1165 00:46:28,030 --> 00:46:25,210 afterlife is kind of like a dream world 1166 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:28,040 it's a realm of pure consciousness and 1167 00:46:32,380 --> 00:46:30,650 it can be negative you know depending on 1168 00:46:34,030 --> 00:46:32,390 the way that we think about or it can be 1169 00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:34,040 positive depending on the way we think 1170 00:46:36,670 --> 00:46:36,170 about it I think that seems to be what 1171 00:46:38,580 --> 00:46:36,680 it's like 1172 00:46:41,110 --> 00:46:38,590 based on what Charly's told me anyway 1173 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:41,120 well I think that makes a lot of sense 1174 00:46:47,050 --> 00:46:43,970 because some people talk about that 1175 00:46:49,870 --> 00:46:47,060 there's baked-in mechanisms in life that 1176 00:46:51,970 --> 00:46:49,880 prepare you for death if you engage with 1177 00:46:54,220 --> 00:46:51,980 them one could be sleep just the fact 1178 00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:54,230 that we dream at all that we go to this 1179 00:47:01,090 --> 00:46:56,480 place every night we forget most of it 1180 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:01,100 but we do it every 12 hours like and 1181 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:02,570 then when we're on our deathbed we're 1182 00:47:05,710 --> 00:47:04,010 like oh my god what's this gonna be like 1183 00:47:08,380 --> 00:47:05,720 you know I'm so scared I'm so worried 1184 00:47:11,530 --> 00:47:08,390 well you've been practicing with 1185 00:47:13,090 --> 00:47:11,540 training wheels every day of your whole 1186 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:13,100 life you just haven't been thinking of 1187 00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:14,810 it in that context and there's probably 1188 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:18,110 other baked-in mechanisms as well that 1189 00:47:22,210 --> 00:47:20,690 help us to prepare for that I mean if 1190 00:47:24,220 --> 00:47:22,220 you look at secret societies not to 1191 00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:24,230 bring it back to that constantly but 1192 00:47:29,740 --> 00:47:27,520 their whole philosophy is kind of about 1193 00:47:31,030 --> 00:47:29,750 self-determination and enlightenment and 1194 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:31,040 then they go back to the Egyptian 1195 00:47:35,260 --> 00:47:32,570 mystery schools where they seem to be 1196 00:47:37,660 --> 00:47:35,270 really focused on real engagement with 1197 00:47:39,460 --> 00:47:37,670 that spirit world prolonged contact and 1198 00:47:41,650 --> 00:47:39,470 journeying and all that kind of stuff so 1199 00:47:43,540 --> 00:47:41,660 you can even push it even further but 1200 00:47:46,420 --> 00:47:43,550 even if you don't want to you at least 1201 00:47:49,420 --> 00:47:46,430 have your nightly journey to the dream 1202 00:47:51,130 --> 00:47:49,430 world and that could be relatively the 1203 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:51,140 same thing I mean maybe I'm thinking 1204 00:47:55,510 --> 00:47:53,210 maybe making it way too complex and it 1205 00:47:58,060 --> 00:47:55,520 really is just that simple you know I 1206 00:48:00,640 --> 00:47:58,070 think it makes sense isn't it yeah it 1207 00:48:02,710 --> 00:48:00,650 makes sense that we would be constantly 1208 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:02,720 with our dream cycles and all these 1209 00:48:06,910 --> 00:48:04,370 kinds of things dipping in and out of 1210 00:48:07,540 --> 00:48:06,920 that world and preparing ourselves for 1211 00:48:10,150 --> 00:48:07,550 the transit 1212 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:10,160 it makes sense yeah well if it's not 1213 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:12,050 that then you have a whole nother world 1214 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:13,850 you need to explain because we need to 1215 00:48:16,870 --> 00:48:15,410 explain in the dream world too so I 1216 00:48:19,890 --> 00:48:16,880 would assume that hopefully they're 1217 00:48:23,950 --> 00:48:19,900 probably the same just for simplicity's 1218 00:48:26,020 --> 00:48:23,960 and you have a an essay titled an 1219 00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:26,030 anthropology of the spirit world and 1220 00:48:30,910 --> 00:48:28,310 that's really provocative I wish that 1221 00:48:32,590 --> 00:48:30,920 was a field of study if it was a field 1222 00:48:34,630 --> 00:48:32,600 of study or something you could get a 1223 00:48:36,550 --> 00:48:34,640 PhD in what would it look like to you I 1224 00:48:36,940 --> 00:48:36,560 guess kind of like shamanism really 1225 00:48:40,090 --> 00:48:36,950 right 1226 00:48:43,090 --> 00:48:40,100 well yeah but an anthropology of the 1227 00:48:45,820 --> 00:48:43,100 spirit world would be very much like 1228 00:48:49,900 --> 00:48:45,830 anthropology as a discipline as it is 1229 00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:49,910 now making use of these ideas about 1230 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:52,730 ontological flooding and this idea of 1231 00:48:57,940 --> 00:48:54,890 cognitive empathetic engagement which is 1232 00:49:00,160 --> 00:48:57,950 an idea that my supervisor has been 1233 00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:00,170 using to explore the spirit world and 1234 00:49:04,810 --> 00:49:02,510 kind of trying to engage with that as an 1235 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:04,820 ethnographic field in itself with the 1236 00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:06,410 afterlife and the spirit world as 1237 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:07,570 something that we can study 1238 00:49:11,830 --> 00:49:09,770 ethnographically and that could be in 1239 00:49:14,580 --> 00:49:11,840 any kind of way it could be through 1240 00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:14,590 studying shamans in the Amazon or 1241 00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:18,530 shamanic traditions up in Siberia or 1242 00:49:23,380 --> 00:49:19,760 wherever it could be dealing with 1243 00:49:25,180 --> 00:49:23,390 mediums in suburban Bristol or it could 1244 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:25,190 be some other kind of like an 1245 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:28,210 anthropology of dreaming you know 1246 00:49:34,210 --> 00:49:30,650 phenomenological approach trying to 1247 00:49:35,830 --> 00:49:34,220 understand the experience of dreams you 1248 00:49:37,630 --> 00:49:35,840 know things like that that's how I 1249 00:49:40,270 --> 00:49:37,640 imagine an anthropology of the spirit 1250 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:40,280 world would work be engaging with all of 1251 00:49:45,100 --> 00:49:42,290 those different lines of inquiry and 1252 00:49:47,860 --> 00:49:45,110 trying to build up as clearer picture as 1253 00:49:49,330 --> 00:49:47,870 we can aware of the fact also that this 1254 00:49:53,500 --> 00:49:49,340 picture is probably going to be quite 1255 00:49:55,420 --> 00:49:53,510 complex yes well so many little case 1256 00:49:57,460 --> 00:49:55,430 studies you have in the exploring the 1257 00:49:59,260 --> 00:49:57,470 anomalous book or engaging with the 1258 00:50:01,690 --> 00:49:59,270 anomalous book they're little clues 1259 00:50:03,790 --> 00:50:01,700 they're bread crumbs - fleshing out this 1260 00:50:05,740 --> 00:50:03,800 map and you touch on a guy named Patrick 1261 00:50:07,690 --> 00:50:05,750 Giesler and the results of his work that 1262 00:50:10,090 --> 00:50:07,700 seemed to show that culturally 1263 00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:10,100 significant symbols are more potent than 1264 00:50:14,290 --> 00:50:12,050 something like a random number generator 1265 00:50:17,170 --> 00:50:14,300 when engaging with the paranormal and 1266 00:50:18,670 --> 00:50:17,180 that's interesting what does that say to 1267 00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:18,680 you or how would you explain that to 1268 00:50:22,940 --> 00:50:19,680 people who are trying to 1269 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:22,950 pack that yeah so Patrick Easter's 1270 00:50:27,170 --> 00:50:25,170 really interesting anthropologist who 1271 00:50:29,359 --> 00:50:27,180 has been fully engaged with 1272 00:50:31,579 --> 00:50:29,369 parapsychology and you know not ashamed 1273 00:50:33,490 --> 00:50:31,589 to say that he's been doing that for you 1274 00:50:37,790 --> 00:50:33,500 know like 30 years or so so he's a real 1275 00:50:39,829 --> 00:50:37,800 pioneer of this parent apology for the 1276 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:39,839 Anthropology the paranormal but what it 1277 00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:42,210 suggests is that kind of like what I've 1278 00:50:48,230 --> 00:50:44,880 been saying already that our cultural 1279 00:50:51,260 --> 00:50:48,240 beliefs and expectations are important 1280 00:50:54,260 --> 00:50:51,270 that they facilitate our our psy 1281 00:50:57,819 --> 00:50:54,270 abilities so what he found was that he 1282 00:50:59,930 --> 00:50:57,829 would get negative results if he did 1283 00:51:01,970 --> 00:50:59,940 experiments with random number 1284 00:51:04,010 --> 00:51:01,980 generators and symbols that we 1285 00:51:06,140 --> 00:51:04,020 recognized from our culture because they 1286 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:06,150 don't mean anything to people down in 1287 00:51:10,490 --> 00:51:08,490 the Amazon it's not relevant to them but 1288 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:10,500 if you shift the symbols to something 1289 00:51:14,270 --> 00:51:12,450 that means something to them that has 1290 00:51:17,750 --> 00:51:14,280 relevance to their everyday lives and 1291 00:51:19,819 --> 00:51:17,760 they understand culturally then the side 1292 00:51:21,570 --> 00:51:19,829 effect seemed to be much stronger much 1293 00:51:25,380 --> 00:51:21,580 more powerful 1294 00:51:27,690 --> 00:51:25,390 I ties in with the work of Italian 1295 00:51:31,140 --> 00:51:27,700 anthropologist called an esto DiMartino 1296 00:51:34,490 --> 00:51:31,150 and he basically came to the conclusion 1297 00:51:38,460 --> 00:51:34,500 that para psychological experiments 1298 00:51:41,780 --> 00:51:38,470 reduced paranormal phenomena to you know 1299 00:51:44,220 --> 00:51:41,790 really small effects so when we think of 1300 00:51:47,220 --> 00:51:44,230 the kinds of experiments that they do in 1301 00:51:49,950 --> 00:51:47,230 the lab the effects that they get are so 1302 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:49,960 small they're only just statistically 1303 00:51:55,260 --> 00:51:53,170 significant when we compare that to the 1304 00:51:57,660 --> 00:51:55,270 experiences that people have in in real 1305 00:51:59,730 --> 00:51:57,670 life or especially to the kinds of 1306 00:52:02,190 --> 00:51:59,740 experiences that people like the people 1307 00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:02,200 in shamanic traditions have there's no 1308 00:52:07,410 --> 00:52:04,960 comparison the real life experiences are 1309 00:52:11,250 --> 00:52:07,420 always much more kind of vivid they're 1310 00:52:12,990 --> 00:52:11,260 more potent it's not just statistically 1311 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:13,000 significant events it's like major 1312 00:52:18,420 --> 00:52:16,210 synchronicities and major apparitions 1313 00:52:22,410 --> 00:52:18,430 and crazy stuff like the really crazy 1314 00:52:24,300 --> 00:52:22,420 stuff so it seems to be that the 1315 00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:24,310 paranormal or whatever we want to call 1316 00:52:30,810 --> 00:52:28,000 it thrives in its natural environment 1317 00:52:32,730 --> 00:52:30,820 that makes sense and we we try to bring 1318 00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:32,740 it into the laboratory we kind of kill 1319 00:52:37,410 --> 00:52:35,710 it in a way yeah it's a difficult thing 1320 00:52:40,890 --> 00:52:37,420 to do to take it out of the environment 1321 00:52:43,230 --> 00:52:40,900 because it is kind of all in the soup 1322 00:52:46,610 --> 00:52:43,240 that makes these experiences happen and 1323 00:52:49,950 --> 00:52:46,620 uh one example that I really liked is 1324 00:52:53,610 --> 00:52:49,960 some neuroimaging research conducted by 1325 00:52:55,860 --> 00:52:53,620 Julio Fernando Perez regarding automatic 1326 00:52:58,170 --> 00:52:55,870 writing mediums claimed to be taken over 1327 00:52:59,610 --> 00:52:58,180 by enemies while going into these trance 1328 00:53:01,770 --> 00:52:59,620 States and these entities are 1329 00:53:04,050 --> 00:53:01,780 communicating messages from these human 1330 00:53:06,420 --> 00:53:04,060 husks well let's see if we can test that 1331 00:53:09,630 --> 00:53:06,430 turns out there is something measurable 1332 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:09,640 in that instance right yeah they found 1333 00:53:13,590 --> 00:53:12,010 really interesting things like when 1334 00:53:15,930 --> 00:53:13,600 these mediums were doing automatic 1335 00:53:17,940 --> 00:53:15,940 writing which is where they kind of let 1336 00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:17,950 the spirit do the writing for them they 1337 00:53:22,170 --> 00:53:19,570 found that the areas of the brain that 1338 00:53:24,930 --> 00:53:22,180 are usually associated with doing 1339 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:24,940 complex activities like writing and 1340 00:53:29,070 --> 00:53:26,290 speaking and things like that were 1341 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:29,080 actually the activity in those areas was 1342 00:53:33,750 --> 00:53:31,810 actually reduced which it kind of goes 1343 00:53:35,430 --> 00:53:33,760 contrary to what we would expect and you 1344 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:35,440 know from a common sense perspective 1345 00:53:38,999 --> 00:53:37,210 we would expect to see if someone's 1346 00:53:40,829 --> 00:53:39,009 doing a complex activity like writing 1347 00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:40,839 that those areas are going to be lit up 1348 00:53:45,630 --> 00:53:43,690 and then I linked this up with some more 1349 00:53:48,870 --> 00:53:45,640 research on psychedelics where they 1350 00:53:51,359 --> 00:53:48,880 found under the influence of psilocybin 1351 00:53:53,279 --> 00:53:51,369 at the kind of peak of the experience 1352 00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:53,289 when their experiences are most vivid 1353 00:53:58,769 --> 00:53:55,930 and most extraordinary the activity in 1354 00:54:00,329 --> 00:53:58,779 the brain seemed to be lower and the 1355 00:54:02,670 --> 00:54:00,339 blood flow was decreased and all those 1356 00:54:04,549 --> 00:54:02,680 kind of things and all of that kind of 1357 00:54:06,990 --> 00:54:04,559 lends credence to the possibility that 1358 00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:07,000 during these psychedelic states and 1359 00:54:11,819 --> 00:54:08,710 during these trans States we are 1360 00:54:13,499 --> 00:54:11,829 actually surrendering control we are no 1361 00:54:17,069 --> 00:54:13,509 longer in control and something else 1362 00:54:18,269 --> 00:54:17,079 seems to be kind of coming through just 1363 00:54:19,890 --> 00:54:18,279 goes to show that you know when these 1364 00:54:22,609 --> 00:54:19,900 mediums say that they are having a 1365 00:54:24,900 --> 00:54:22,619 trance state or some kind of anomalous 1366 00:54:28,460 --> 00:54:24,910 psychological processes they probably 1367 00:54:31,930 --> 00:54:28,470 are because it's demonstrated that 1368 00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:31,940 something actually happens 1369 00:54:37,240 --> 00:54:34,130 yeah I love when we can actually get 1370 00:54:38,849 --> 00:54:37,250 that recorded data I mean it's harder to 1371 00:54:43,259 --> 00:54:38,859 deny that it's harder to have 1372 00:54:46,029 --> 00:54:43,269 presumptions about hard evidence and so 1373 00:54:49,390 --> 00:54:46,039 what's up next for you man talk to us 1374 00:54:52,660 --> 00:54:49,400 about the realms you plan to tackle 1375 00:54:54,849 --> 00:54:52,670 going forward yeah well what I'm doing 1376 00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:54,859 at the moment is I'm working on the 1377 00:54:59,950 --> 00:54:57,650 edited book called I think I'm gonna 1378 00:55:01,289 --> 00:54:59,960 call it greening the paranormal which is 1379 00:55:04,539 --> 00:55:01,299 about these connections between 1380 00:55:06,910 --> 00:55:04,549 anomalistic s-- between parapsychology 1381 00:55:10,240 --> 00:55:06,920 and parents Rapala G and all that's kind 1382 00:55:12,819 --> 00:55:10,250 of stuff and ecology yeah so thinking 1383 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:12,829 about different ways of conceiving of 1384 00:55:16,839 --> 00:55:15,890 intelligence in nature and all of the 1385 00:55:18,789 --> 00:55:16,849 things that we've been talking about 1386 00:55:21,099 --> 00:55:18,799 today so I've been gathering a lot of 1387 00:55:22,509 --> 00:55:21,109 really interesting articles from 1388 00:55:24,549 --> 00:55:22,519 different scholars working in these 1389 00:55:26,589 --> 00:55:24,559 kinds of areas and just trying to work 1390 00:55:29,620 --> 00:55:26,599 out what this connection is between the 1391 00:55:30,670 --> 00:55:29,630 paranormal and the natural world some of 1392 00:55:32,799 --> 00:55:30,680 the things we've been talking about I 1393 00:55:34,569 --> 00:55:32,809 like the role of culture in modulating 1394 00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:34,579 the paranormal and the 1395 00:55:38,710 --> 00:55:36,650 neurophysiological correlates of the 1396 00:55:40,870 --> 00:55:38,720 paranormal and all of that stuff we're 1397 00:55:42,339 --> 00:55:40,880 starting to build up a bigger picture of 1398 00:55:44,740 --> 00:55:42,349 how it fits in with all of these 1399 00:55:46,930 --> 00:55:44,750 different domains of life and I think 1400 00:55:51,279 --> 00:55:46,940 that the next step is to connect it into 1401 00:55:53,650 --> 00:55:51,289 the wider ecological context all the 1402 00:55:55,029 --> 00:55:53,660 networks between organisms and all of 1403 00:55:58,089 --> 00:55:55,039 that kind of stuff so that's where I'm 1404 00:56:02,319 --> 00:55:58,099 at at the moment exciting I think that's 1405 00:56:03,849 --> 00:56:02,329 a perfect place to go and man as as 1406 00:56:06,549 --> 00:56:03,859 we're closing this thing out do also 1407 00:56:08,170 --> 00:56:06,559 remind people about your previous work 1408 00:56:09,759 --> 00:56:08,180 your journal all that good stuff 1409 00:56:12,490 --> 00:56:09,769 of course we probably want to give them 1410 00:56:14,799 --> 00:56:12,500 your URL info because when you just 1411 00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:14,809 google Jack hunter you might not be in 1412 00:56:19,900 --> 00:56:16,490 the mood for everything that comes up 1413 00:56:21,670 --> 00:56:19,910 okay yeah there's a weird like cheap 1414 00:56:23,950 --> 00:56:21,680 ripoff of Indiana Jones called Jack 1415 00:56:27,370 --> 00:56:23,960 hunter as well she's really annoying 1416 00:56:28,809 --> 00:56:27,380 anyway yeah there's my journal parent 1417 00:56:30,910 --> 00:56:28,819 apology which has been on a bit of a 1418 00:56:33,999 --> 00:56:30,920 hiatus for about a year but it hasn't 1419 00:56:35,890 --> 00:56:34,009 died and I am planning to do new issues 1420 00:56:37,450 --> 00:56:35,900 of it's just finding the time to fit it 1421 00:56:39,069 --> 00:56:37,460 in with everything but if you're 1422 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:39,079 interested to look at all the back 1423 00:56:43,630 --> 00:56:40,970 issues of that which has been going for 1424 00:56:45,870 --> 00:56:43,640 about eight years now you can go to 1425 00:56:47,550 --> 00:56:45,880 parent through Paula G Co UK 1426 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:47,560 and you can access all of the journal 1427 00:56:52,590 --> 00:56:50,770 there for free and download it and if 1428 00:56:55,050 --> 00:56:52,600 you want to find out more about all of 1429 00:56:57,840 --> 00:56:55,060 my work as a whole you can check out my 1430 00:57:01,020 --> 00:56:57,850 personal website which is Jack - hunter 1431 00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:01,030 dot web starts com I'm sure we can put a 1432 00:57:05,430 --> 00:57:03,490 link up on your site to link to that and 1433 00:57:07,770 --> 00:57:05,440 then you can find all the news and 1434 00:57:09,780 --> 00:57:07,780 different ideas that I've been thinking 1435 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:09,790 about recently on the blog and a 1436 00:57:14,980 --> 00:57:12,010 collection of all my articles and books 1437 00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:14,990 and everything it's all up there so 1438 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:18,330 awesome Wow man well I am just really 1439 00:57:22,310 --> 00:57:19,890 impressed with all the work you've done 1440 00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:22,320 you are a great example of how a person 1441 00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:25,440 can navigate the academic system and 1442 00:57:29,030 --> 00:57:27,450 bring it around to how you want it to be 1443 00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:29,040 rather than just dismissing the whole 1444 00:57:32,690 --> 00:57:30,960 process and then limiting your life's 1445 00:57:36,410 --> 00:57:32,700 options to just what's on the outside 1446 00:57:37,940 --> 00:57:36,420 edges like I did so much respect keep 1447 00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:37,950 doing what you do and keep fighting the 1448 00:57:40,100 --> 00:57:39,570 good fight that's great thank you very 1449 00:57:42,500 --> 00:57:40,110 much 1450 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:42,510 you got it 1451 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:45,210 happy ghosts a Halloween ease what an 1452 00:57:50,060 --> 00:57:48,210 appropriate episode for Halloween and I 1453 00:57:52,370 --> 00:57:50,070 didn't even plan it that way and I 1454 00:57:55,070 --> 00:57:52,380 usually don't but sometimes we have 1455 00:57:57,260 --> 00:57:55,080 these happy accidents and speaking of 1456 00:57:58,490 --> 00:57:57,270 happy accidents or synchronicities as 1457 00:58:01,700 --> 00:57:58,500 some people like to call them 1458 00:58:04,130 --> 00:58:01,710 I had heard dr. hunter on both skeptic 1459 00:58:05,900 --> 00:58:04,140 oh and rune soup and thought yes jack is 1460 00:58:09,140 --> 00:58:05,910 doing exactly the kind of thing that I'd 1461 00:58:12,290 --> 00:58:09,150 like to highlight and literally as I was 1462 00:58:14,930 --> 00:58:12,300 writing and emailed to him for an 1463 00:58:16,610 --> 00:58:14,940 interview request one came in from him 1464 00:58:19,910 --> 00:58:16,620 about seeing if we could do a show 1465 00:58:21,980 --> 00:58:19,920 together and that has never happened we 1466 00:58:24,950 --> 00:58:21,990 had never spoken before so that was 1467 00:58:26,870 --> 00:58:24,960 about as unlikely as anything big thanks 1468 00:58:29,270 --> 00:58:26,880 to the ethereal string pullers for 1469 00:58:30,890 --> 00:58:29,280 putting us in contact we're trying to 1470 00:58:34,970 --> 00:58:30,900 find you a place in the Western world 1471 00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:34,980 spirits we are trying but it all worked 1472 00:58:40,820 --> 00:58:37,170 out clearly the universe knows what 1473 00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:40,830 makes for a good fit on THC but this 1474 00:58:44,630 --> 00:58:42,450 just gets back to my whole thing about 1475 00:58:48,260 --> 00:58:44,640 studying or testing the paranormal 1476 00:58:50,540 --> 00:58:48,270 head-on if it's real and it works and it 1477 00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:50,550 is and it does then it should stand up 1478 00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,610 to scrutiny and that means a PhD doing 1479 00:58:57,590 --> 00:58:55,200 professional research yeah I know some 1480 00:59:00,080 --> 00:58:57,600 of these things don't translate to being 1481 00:59:02,630 --> 00:59:00,090 tested in the lab but others do we 1482 00:59:05,150 --> 00:59:02,640 talked about some of those things but as 1483 00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:05,160 a side effect of propping up a guy like 1484 00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:07,290 dr. hunter I think we might put more 1485 00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:10,890 cracks in that academia armor so I like 1486 00:59:15,890 --> 00:59:12,480 this one for a lot of reasons and this 1487 00:59:17,330 --> 00:59:15,900 magic paranormal nature next this is 1488 00:59:19,940 --> 00:59:17,340 probably going to get hit on a lot more 1489 00:59:22,370 --> 00:59:19,950 going forward in this connection it 1490 00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:22,380 might seem like a no-brainer on one hand 1491 00:59:26,390 --> 00:59:24,930 but on the other we spend so little time 1492 00:59:28,730 --> 00:59:26,400 in the natural world that it's hard to 1493 00:59:31,430 --> 00:59:28,740 even take the paranormal magical 1494 00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:31,440 opinions of a person who's never engaged 1495 00:59:36,740 --> 00:59:34,530 with nature seriously I guess I'm saying 1496 00:59:38,660 --> 00:59:36,750 that I think that Association is so 1497 00:59:40,420 --> 00:59:38,670 strong that it's kind of like a person 1498 00:59:42,980 --> 00:59:40,430 who has only ever lived in the desert 1499 00:59:45,230 --> 00:59:42,990 pontificating about penguins your 1500 00:59:46,910 --> 00:59:45,240 opinion is of limited value to me if 1501 00:59:49,430 --> 00:59:46,920 you've never been in the environment in 1502 00:59:51,590 --> 00:59:49,440 which penguins thrive you can say you've 1503 00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:51,600 read books about them you can tell me 1504 00:59:55,210 --> 00:59:53,850 you bought a five-star rated penguin 1505 00:59:57,099 --> 00:59:55,220 call on Amazon 1506 00:59:59,770 --> 00:59:57,109 you can't get it to work but you're 1507 01:00:02,020 --> 00:59:59,780 using it in the wrong environment call 1508 01:00:03,820 --> 01:00:02,030 penguins all you want in the desert they 1509 01:00:05,589 --> 01:00:03,830 will not show up it doesn't mean the 1510 01:00:08,410 --> 01:00:05,599 tools to call them don't work and it 1511 01:00:10,660 --> 01:00:08,420 doesn't mean they don't exist I think 1512 01:00:12,970 --> 01:00:10,670 you know what I'm saying but I don't see 1513 01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:12,980 that need to be vague or shy about 1514 01:00:18,250 --> 01:00:15,170 really going after these weird things if 1515 01:00:21,220 --> 01:00:18,260 we do it right I'm just sort of seeking 1516 01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:21,230 that higher-level conversation no pun 1517 01:00:25,930 --> 01:00:23,810 intended about these things and that's 1518 01:00:28,750 --> 01:00:25,940 something we've sought out to do for a 1519 01:00:30,370 --> 01:00:28,760 long time it's not really new but when 1520 01:00:32,770 --> 01:00:30,380 it comes to some of the more out there 1521 01:00:35,020 --> 01:00:32,780 episodes I've done things that involve 1522 01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:35,030 something like perhaps and Andromeda 1523 01:00:42,310 --> 01:00:38,570 Council I used to think that was fun or 1524 01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:42,320 entertaining just for its boldness even 1525 01:00:46,839 --> 01:00:45,170 if I couldn't verify it of course but 1526 01:00:50,589 --> 01:00:46,849 some of those sorts of things are 1527 01:00:52,650 --> 01:00:50,599 becoming less fun to me or maybe I 1528 01:00:56,109 --> 01:00:52,660 should just say I'm not as proud of 1529 01:00:58,750 --> 01:00:56,119 releasing those episodes as I am one 1530 01:01:01,510 --> 01:00:58,760 like today and I'm not alluding to any 1531 01:01:04,390 --> 01:01:01,520 kind of sweeping change to THC it's just 1532 01:01:06,310 --> 01:01:04,400 how I'm feeling and to be honest I was 1533 01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:06,320 actually just approached by one of the 1534 01:01:11,140 --> 01:01:08,450 biggest names in the conspiratorial 1535 01:01:14,230 --> 01:01:11,150 underbelly who was associated with just 1536 01:01:18,970 --> 01:01:14,240 this sort of super wild can't really 1537 01:01:20,890 --> 01:01:18,980 verify it pop conspiracy sagas and I 1538 01:01:22,630 --> 01:01:20,900 don't know what to do with it it 1539 01:01:26,470 --> 01:01:22,640 actually feels like a well-timed 1540 01:01:29,530 --> 01:01:26,480 challenge from the universe we will see 1541 01:01:31,930 --> 01:01:29,540 every experience on this THC journey is 1542 01:01:33,730 --> 01:01:31,940 new to me and there is no manual so I 1543 01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:33,740 really appreciate listeners who aren't 1544 01:01:40,420 --> 01:01:37,010 too critical or too harsh on me over the 1545 01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:40,430 small things or when I misstep because I 1546 01:01:45,310 --> 01:01:42,410 really am just a regular guy doing the 1547 01:01:47,470 --> 01:01:45,320 best I can I kind of have a large 1548 01:01:49,390 --> 01:01:47,480 audience that's always growing everyone 1549 01:01:51,849 --> 01:01:49,400 has different opinions on me or what I 1550 01:01:53,770 --> 01:01:51,859 should be doing and we've had some drama 1551 01:01:55,540 --> 01:01:53,780 over the past few months over little 1552 01:01:58,000 --> 01:01:55,550 things that I probably just gave too 1553 01:02:00,430 --> 01:01:58,010 much attention to lesson learned I 1554 01:02:03,190 --> 01:02:00,440 talked about some of that drama on grrah 1555 01:02:05,530 --> 01:02:03,200 merica recently and for some people even 1556 01:02:07,130 --> 01:02:05,540 that seemed to cause more problems than 1557 01:02:09,830 --> 01:02:07,140 it solves 1558 01:02:12,800 --> 01:02:09,840 you just can't please everyone I'm also 1559 01:02:15,410 --> 01:02:12,810 a guy who is dealing with this increased 1560 01:02:17,540 --> 01:02:15,420 success for the first time and maybe not 1561 01:02:20,630 --> 01:02:17,550 always with the grace and poise of a 1562 01:02:23,270 --> 01:02:20,640 trained media personality ultimately it 1563 01:02:25,100 --> 01:02:23,280 doesn't matter and it's all good and I 1564 01:02:28,670 --> 01:02:25,110 think the shows have been pretty solid 1565 01:02:31,100 --> 01:02:28,680 lately and the guests on point although 1566 01:02:33,770 --> 01:02:31,110 the last one was a bit unbalanced if 1567 01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:33,780 that's the worst of our problems then 1568 01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:35,730 we're doing pretty great but getting 1569 01:02:39,890 --> 01:02:38,130 back to dr. Jack I look at his career 1570 01:02:41,870 --> 01:02:39,900 and I think about what sort of things I 1571 01:02:43,940 --> 01:02:41,880 could have done if I hadn't been so 1572 01:02:46,310 --> 01:02:43,950 stubborn in school and only focused on 1573 01:02:48,470 --> 01:02:46,320 where it was broken rather than what I 1574 01:02:50,090 --> 01:02:48,480 could do with it and I hope some 1575 01:02:51,530 --> 01:02:50,100 listeners may be younger ones than me 1576 01:02:53,690 --> 01:02:51,540 reflect on that as well 1577 01:02:56,060 --> 01:02:53,700 it reminds me of one of my favorite 1578 01:03:00,410 --> 01:02:56,070 lines from Hamilton at one point Aaron 1579 01:03:02,150 --> 01:03:00,420 Burr says talk less smile more don't let 1580 01:03:05,300 --> 01:03:02,160 them know what you're against or what 1581 01:03:07,970 --> 01:03:05,310 you're for and that's wise you can be a 1582 01:03:10,900 --> 01:03:07,980 rebel without wearing it on your sleeve 1583 01:03:13,700 --> 01:03:10,910 especially in such a polarized climate 1584 01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:13,710 obviously doctor Jack's thesis was on 1585 01:03:19,370 --> 01:03:16,170 spirit mediumship nothing subtle about 1586 01:03:21,380 --> 01:03:19,380 that but he stated before that academia 1587 01:03:23,570 --> 01:03:21,390 hasn't really been a huge problem for 1588 01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:23,580 him and I think part of it is his 1589 01:03:28,700 --> 01:03:26,610 attitude he's not abrasive to academia 1590 01:03:30,910 --> 01:03:28,710 but he's actually Jack Sparrow in his 1591 01:03:33,530 --> 01:03:30,920 way right into the best of both worlds 1592 01:03:35,900 --> 01:03:33,540 pushing the needle further for us fringy 1593 01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:35,910 folks and also maintaining a sort of 1594 01:03:40,370 --> 01:03:38,250 credibility and professionalism accepted 1595 01:03:42,830 --> 01:03:40,380 in the mainstream one foot in and one 1596 01:03:45,110 --> 01:03:42,840 foot out so to speak and why is that 1597 01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:45,120 important well if we don't bridge the 1598 01:03:49,130 --> 01:03:47,010 gap between the two worlds then we just 1599 01:03:51,110 --> 01:03:49,140 have to separate groups of people who 1600 01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:51,120 have already made up their minds talking 1601 01:03:56,570 --> 01:03:53,970 amongst themselves it doesn't seem like 1602 01:03:57,950 --> 01:03:56,580 we get too far with that if we want to 1603 01:04:00,650 --> 01:03:57,960 change the world we have to learn how to 1604 01:04:04,070 --> 01:04:00,660 communicate with the non-believers with 1605 01:04:06,140 --> 01:04:04,080 a bit more nuance and that burden is on 1606 01:04:08,540 --> 01:04:06,150 us because we actually have the more 1607 01:04:10,550 --> 01:04:08,550 accurate model but we have to sight 1608 01:04:11,990 --> 01:04:10,560 better information and make better 1609 01:04:14,330 --> 01:04:12,000 arguments whether we're talking about 1610 01:04:16,730 --> 01:04:14,340 the paranormal or conspiracy or the 1611 01:04:18,260 --> 01:04:16,740 esoteric just to stick with the 1612 01:04:19,890 --> 01:04:18,270 paranormal because that's what this show 1613 01:04:21,510 --> 01:04:19,900 is about someone who doesn't believe 1614 01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:21,520 even that stuff probably puts a lot of 1615 01:04:27,059 --> 01:04:24,130 blind faith in science academia and 1616 01:04:29,370 --> 01:04:27,069 official accreditation so now instead of 1617 01:04:32,190 --> 01:04:29,380 saying you're wrong at Israel I know it 1618 01:04:33,990 --> 01:04:32,200 we say to those people oh you might be 1619 01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:34,000 interested in this guy dr. Jack hunter 1620 01:04:37,529 --> 01:04:36,130 he's got a PhD in anthropology and he's 1621 01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:37,539 written a pretty interesting book that 1622 01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:39,250 contains some hard data and recorded 1623 01:04:44,670 --> 01:04:41,170 results that you might find convincing 1624 01:04:46,740 --> 01:04:44,680 and yes I know we can lead these man 1625 01:04:50,430 --> 01:04:46,750 horses to truth water but we can't make 1626 01:04:53,309 --> 01:04:50,440 them drink sure but it is just a better 1627 01:04:55,319 --> 01:04:53,319 approach I'm never gonna be the Jack 1628 01:04:56,849 --> 01:04:55,329 hunter I'm coming to terms with this I'm 1629 01:04:59,490 --> 01:04:56,859 never going to be the professional 1630 01:05:03,240 --> 01:04:59,500 that's taken seriously it's just too 1631 01:05:05,490 --> 01:05:03,250 late for me but I can connect people to 1632 01:05:08,010 --> 01:05:05,500 that person and I think we should all 1633 01:05:10,559 --> 01:05:08,020 sort of have that outlook because we 1634 01:05:12,029 --> 01:05:10,569 aren't wrong and a lot of the time it's 1635 01:05:13,380 --> 01:05:12,039 not really even about who's right or 1636 01:05:15,930 --> 01:05:13,390 wrong it's about who makes the most 1637 01:05:18,450 --> 01:05:15,940 convincing arguments and sometimes a 1638 01:05:20,279 --> 01:05:18,460 guest will be spot on in one area but if 1639 01:05:23,099 --> 01:05:20,289 they use examples that are out of their 1640 01:05:25,230 --> 01:05:23,109 lane like the moon landing or they cite 1641 01:05:28,769 --> 01:05:25,240 some odd attachment to conventional 1642 01:05:30,809 --> 01:05:28,779 politics I just let that go and bring 1643 01:05:34,230 --> 01:05:30,819 them back to what they're good at to 1644 01:05:36,329 --> 01:05:34,240 their expertise so overall I think dr. 1645 01:05:38,670 --> 01:05:36,339 hunter checks a lot of those positive 1646 01:05:41,180 --> 01:05:38,680 boxes and makes a killer ally in our 1647 01:05:43,769 --> 01:05:41,190 mission to shape the world in our image 1648 01:05:46,620 --> 01:05:43,779 with eyes open to the fringes and the 1649 01:05:48,180 --> 01:05:46,630 Empire at our backs that said if you 1650 01:05:50,069 --> 01:05:48,190 like the first hour maybe it's time to 1651 01:05:51,660 --> 01:05:50,079 join the higher side chats plus maybe 1652 01:05:54,750 --> 01:05:51,670 this is the one that gets you to jump on 1653 01:05:57,210 --> 01:05:54,760 over I will say we talked about a lot of 1654 01:06:00,059 --> 01:05:57,220 interesting stuff we got into that old 1655 01:06:01,950 --> 01:06:00,069 idea of cedar cultures versus spiritual 1656 01:06:04,620 --> 01:06:01,960 teachers how did these ideas get around 1657 01:06:07,740 --> 01:06:04,630 the world talked about alien channelers 1658 01:06:11,279 --> 01:06:07,750 floating green goat heads animism the 1659 01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:11,289 agency of rocks and rock mouths which I 1660 01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:13,930 still stand by is probably the strangest 1661 01:06:19,650 --> 01:06:17,650 thing in any episode and we threw a 1662 01:06:21,690 --> 01:06:19,660 little more icing on that cake by 1663 01:06:23,970 --> 01:06:21,700 talking about receiving signs from 1664 01:06:26,549 --> 01:06:23,980 plants and animals more wild stories 1665 01:06:29,579 --> 01:06:26,559 from the field of anthropology dr. 1666 01:06:32,849 --> 01:06:29,589 hunters possessed hands story and a deep 1667 01:06:33,700 --> 01:06:32,859 dive into ectoplasm which was pretty 1668 01:06:36,940 --> 01:06:33,710 damned 1669 01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:36,950 fascinating - so if you're listening on 1670 01:06:41,650 --> 01:06:39,650 a podcast player on your phone just look 1671 01:06:43,930 --> 01:06:41,660 at the show notes and click the text of 1672 01:06:46,540 --> 01:06:43,940 the plus pitch and the form comes up 1673 01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:46,550 right away username password payment 1674 01:06:52,780 --> 01:06:49,520 information and boom you're in you don't 1675 01:06:55,510 --> 01:06:52,790 even have to go to your PC and type in 1676 01:06:58,450 --> 01:06:55,520 the URL for the higher side chats + comm 1677 01:07:00,400 --> 01:06:58,460 slash subscribe I'm a lazy guy I know 1678 01:07:02,140 --> 01:07:00,410 that we don't all want to go through 1679 01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:02,150 those steps well I've tried to make it 1680 01:07:06,849 --> 01:07:03,770 easy for you it's right there 1681 01:07:09,700 --> 01:07:06,859 your hand is probably close to on it in 1682 01:07:12,250 --> 01:07:09,710 this very moment signing up for Plus 1683 01:07:13,390 --> 01:07:12,260 would be a huge help to me but you don't 1684 01:07:16,750 --> 01:07:13,400 really know me what do you care about 1685 01:07:18,190 --> 01:07:16,760 helping me you actually get to double 1686 01:07:19,870 --> 01:07:18,200 your higher side experience and you 1687 01:07:22,780 --> 01:07:19,880 obviously like it you're here right now 1688 01:07:26,710 --> 01:07:22,790 why not hear a full show or all the full 1689 01:07:29,020 --> 01:07:26,720 shows and then we can also as a nice 1690 01:07:30,849 --> 01:07:29,030 little side effect sidestep all the D 1691 01:07:33,670 --> 01:07:30,859 platforming drama because we're in a 1692 01:07:36,730 --> 01:07:33,680 closed tight-knit system that doesn't 1693 01:07:38,500 --> 01:07:36,740 rely on any of that but that's a show 1694 01:07:41,320 --> 01:07:38,510 guys and that's the month of October 1695 01:07:44,020 --> 01:07:41,330 another five in the can I know we got 1696 01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:44,030 real close to down to the wire it is the 1697 01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:46,490 31st with a show yesterday and one day 1698 01:07:50,770 --> 01:07:48,050 but we are going to be better for the 1699 01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:50,780 rest of the year because I have a more 1700 01:07:57,040 --> 01:07:54,650 open and simpler life ahead of me for 1701 01:07:59,140 --> 01:07:57,050 the next two months thanks for listening 1702 01:08:01,000 --> 01:07:59,150 enjoy the holiday give a hi there and 1703 01:08:03,070 --> 01:08:01,010 hello to dr. hunter if you liked hearing 1704 01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:03,080 him on THC and I'll see you next time 1705 01:08:07,900 --> 01:08:05,690 your move conventional paradigm propers 1706 01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:07,910 paranormal data deniers and people 1707 01:08:15,050 --> 01:08:09,770 standing in the way of the coming wave 1708 01:08:18,349 --> 01:08:15,060 of wider inclusion you're [\h__\h] 1709 01:08:20,900 --> 01:08:18,359 lucid dreams are so vivid cuz you go to 1710 01:08:23,930 --> 01:08:20,910 bed at 7:00 and your brain comes alive 1711 01:08:26,599 --> 01:08:23,940 cuz your hatred 9:00 to 5:00 you wake up 1712 01:08:28,610 --> 01:08:26,609 with a dread and make sure your cats are 1713 01:08:31,130 --> 01:08:28,620 fed did your brain talk to a ghost 1714 01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:31,140 removed your coffee and your toast as 1715 01:08:37,640 --> 01:08:35,130 you listen to the higher side chats you 1716 01:08:40,730 --> 01:08:37,650 get to your desk and your boss says it's 1717 01:08:43,190 --> 01:08:40,740 a mess and your soul slowly goes to a 1718 01:08:47,849 --> 01:08:43,200 place where nothing grows when you think 1719 01:08:50,940 --> 01:08:47,859 he's not around you insert a SETI sound 1720 01:08:55,290 --> 01:08:50,950 vom says turn it down and you say it's 1721 01:08:58,170 --> 01:08:55,300 just the higher side chats hello do you 1722 01:09:03,060 --> 01:08:58,180 think you're being invited to Bohemian 1723 01:09:06,690 --> 01:09:03,070 Grove to a Bilderberg Club oh do you 1724 01:09:10,810 --> 01:09:06,700 think could be invited by Rasta to a 1725 01:09:12,459 --> 01:09:10,820 party on a submarine 1726 01:09:15,530 --> 01:09:12,469 diving down 1727 01:09:18,169 --> 01:09:15,540 to the center of the earth to the 1728 01:09:22,189 --> 01:09:18,179 Marianas Trench your teeth begin to 1729 01:09:26,510 --> 01:09:22,199 clinch from the sulphureus stench the 1730 01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:26,520 mask you give in doesn't fit cuz you're 1731 01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:33,470 starting today you'll make plans to get 1732 01:09:38,780 --> 01:09:36,090 away there's no one to hold you down and 1733 01:09:41,630 --> 01:09:38,790 the what if start to drown then you wake 1734 01:09:44,510 --> 01:09:41,640 to the glare of a co fluorescent stare 1735 01:09:46,850 --> 01:09:44,520 and the light winks at you cuz its life 1736 01:09:50,690 --> 01:09:46,860 is almost through but it's holding gone 1737 01:09:53,700 --> 01:09:50,700 to quit time just like you it's time for